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Location: Weapons & Gear
Discussion: a quick word about automatics
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 roxas33 |
a quick word about automatics
Nov 28 2007, 9:22 PM EST Unless you have millitary or police training you are unlikely to controol the weapon in full auto or even maintain the weapon. Plus in full auto the weapon runs out of ammo fast. 19 out of 25 found this valuable. Do you? |
 dizzdeathwing |
RE: a quick word about automatics
Dec 5 2007, 12:46 PM EST also less accurate, and doesnt gurantee a headshot 6 out of 10 found this valuable. Do you? |
 notazombie |
RE: a quick word about automatics
Dec 6 2007, 2:04 AM EST the only thing automatics are good for is stoping a lot of zombies quick. 1 out of 15 found this valuable. Do you? |
 Springatron |
RE: a quick word about automatics
Dec 13 2007, 10:50 PM EST The military doesn't train to use full auto. Controled pairs (not double taps) and bursts are all that are trained. Even the M4A1, M249 SAW, M2, M240 and Mk. 19 who all have full auto capabilities are taught to the troops to be used with bursts. The M16A2 (back bone of the US military) doesn't have an auto selection just single and burst (three round). The problem with military training is that they train to supress and eliminate. Supression relies on fear of the enemy, zombies have no fear. The Army, Marines and whateaver police that get stuck in there would have to change their SOPs, OP orders, ROEs and what have you. Not to mention that it's more productive to wound a combatant than to kill... Yeah we're screwed. I'd go AWOL. 13 out of 13 found this valuable. Do you? |
 vanrulzz |
RE: a quick word about automatics
Dec 14 2007, 2:34 PM EST yes, full auto is crap against the undead legions. burst fire forever! 4 out of 12 found this valuable. Do you? |
 Jnaran |
RE: a quick word about automatics
Dec 15 2007, 3:38 PM EST "The M16A2 (back bone of the US military) doesn't have an auto selection just single and burst (three round).Yes, The military will have to adapt but the Marine Corps has long had a the motto "One Shot One Kill." every marine is a rifle man and when I was in, you were expected to hit a dog target at 1000 yards away, which could easily be converted to a head shot at 200 yards away. I could sit at top of my house with enough Ammo I could end the Zombie threat. 5 out of 11 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Springatron |
RE: a quick word about automatics
Dec 18 2007, 6:15 PM EST Jnaran I'm not quite sure what a "dog target" is. I do know what point and area targets are, and that 1000 meter shot with a M16A2 damn near impossible. I won't say it is because every day somebody accomplishes something amazing but to do it more than once, that I would have to see to believe. The problem with the Military as a whole being put in a situation like this is not making the kill but rather discriminating friend from foe. A good look at this point is in 28 Weeks Later when the outbreak re-occurs. Trying to herd all the survivors into the shelter of the bases and what have you while destroying the undead would make it damn near impossible to complete the mission. Bullets don't discriminate, the shooter does. This is a scary concept when the shooters are panicked or hurt. They are liable to do things they wouldn't normally. 7 out of 8 found this valuable. Do you? |
 wulfgar87 |
RE: a quick word about automatics
Dec 18 2007, 9:59 PM EST Yeah, unless a dog target is a 20'x20' square i really can't see being "expected" to hit anything with open sights at 1000 meters with a 62gr 5.56x45mm. I can't even find a chart for it that goes past 500yards at which point the bullets already dropped 47in(4 feet), drifted 30ish in. depending on wind, velocities down to 1674 fps, and energy is down to 386 foot pounds. Now using some ghetto "range math" and my handy dandy ballistics calculator at 1000 yards that translates to: a drop of more than 600in. (50feet), a drift of 252in(21feet) with a 10mph wind, an end velocity of 700fps, and the energy's down to 80ft/lbs. Im not saying a target can't be hit at that range with that bullet but im gonna have to call bs on the being "expected" to hit anything but the ground at 1000 yards with open sights. I'd also like to point out that Army Field Manual #23-9 puts the maximum effective range of the M16A2 shooting 5.56x45mm NATO rounds at 460meters so don't know why anyone would be training at that distance anyway. 6 out of 6 found this valuable. Do you? |
 Piratelord78 |
RE: a quick word about automatics
Dec 18 2007, 10:07 PM EST I'll agree that for the most part automatic fire has virtually no use against zombies in most cases, but I will give it props for the following situations; - You need to slow down a zombie horde so that a group of people (say women and children refugees) will have enough time to escape. While semiauto is preferable, shooting at about hip level with an SAW with extended bursts is likely to slow them down considerably. This is especially true if early in the outbreak when nobody has had a chance to practice a headshot. - Human bandits. Zombies won't be the only enemy, and all the old rules will still apply when facing against other humans who've come to harm you. - RAGE style zombies. It doesn't take a headshot to put one down, so use autofire if that's what it takes. - Defense against feral animals (including feral humans). While once again semiautomatics are preferable, full automatic is sometimes necessary in a pinch. 6 out of 7 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Springatron |
RE: a quick word about automatics
Dec 18 2007, 10:45 PM EST " I can't even find a chart for it that goes past 500yards at which point the bullets already dropped 47in(4 feet), drifted 30ish in. depending on wind, velocities down to 1674 fps, and energy is down to 386 foot pounds.First off, wulfgar, you just made my day by quoting FM 23.9. Secondly I want to point out that the M16A2s max effective range is 400 or 460 meters when engaging a point target and 600 meters when engaging an area target. A point target being a man sized object. Like a man... or a zombie... An area target is a large group of man sized things like a mob... of zombies. you are expected to hit them once in a while. Secondly the M249 has a max effective range when engaging point targets of 600 meters and 800 when engaging an area target. this is attributed to a bigger longer barrel with more bullets leaving it. Just though you might want to know. The downfall is it's big it is bulky and heavy, jams on occasion and is hard to control unless you are lying in the prone using it's bipod. While it is possible to "hip shoot" the M249 while using the shoulder strap it is highly discouraged. 7 out of 7 found this valuable. Do you? |
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wulfgar87 |
RE: a quick word about automatics
Dec 18 2007, 11:33 PM EST I really just meant that the .223 has a pretty crappy bc and drops like a rock after 600m. The smallest caliber cartridge I think anyone would even try for 1000 would be a .260 Rem but even then thats a much longer bullet with more than twice the .223s weight and a much better bc. And sorry for hijacking the thread :) when I saw the 1000 meters thing I went bugged eyed and broke out all my old army manuals. Quoting a source = much better crazy internet rant. 5 out of 6 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Jnaran |
RE: a quick word about automatics
Dec 20 2007, 12:21 PM EST "Im not saying a target can't be hit at that range with that bullet but im gonna have to call bs on the being "expected" to hit anything but the ground at 1000 yards with open sights. "First of let me correct my self, it should say 500 yards, which is standard firing range distance for Marine rifle Qual. (I must have been thinking "1000 yard stare" which is something completely different). And the target that they shoot at is a human siluet but I stand by the remark that Marines are "expected" to hit the mark at that distance. Actually should you not hit your target at the 500 yards one will be given all sorts of hell. 3 out of 3 found this valuable. Do you? |
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wulfgar87 |
RE: a quick word about automatics
Dec 20 2007, 3:49 PM EST "First of let me correct my self, it should say 500 yards, which is standard firing range distance for Marine rifle Qual. (I must have been thinking "1000 yard stare" which is something completely different). And the target that they shoot at is a human siluet but I stand by the remark that Marines are "expected" to hit the mark at that distance. Actually should you not hit your target at the 500 yards one will be given all sorts of hell."In that case I apologize for the crazy rant *inserts foot in mouth* 3 out of 4 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Springatron |
RE: a quick word about automatics
Dec 20 2007, 4:26 PM EST 500 yards is more reasonable, still rough with an M16A2. The Army quals on pop-up silouete from 50 to 300 meters. Pop-ups make it a little more challenging. The time the target stays up is increased from 1.5 seconds (maybe 2) at the 50 meter on out to the 300 meter to about four to five seconds. There is 5 to ten seconds between each target also. Now this is standard M16/M4 marksmanship qualifications. Not the same for as sniper school qualifications, or M249, M240, M2 and M203. Any-who... 4 out of 4 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Jnaran |
RE: a quick word about automatics
Dec 22 2007, 8:41 AM EST "500 yards is more reasonable, still rough with an M16A2.Actually it’s fairly common to hit 10 out of 10 from 500 yards, when you consider that it’s from the prone position and you have ten minutes to do it. It’s commonly referred to as "gravy points". I remember when I was in 10 of 10 was very common. 3 out of 4 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Springatron |
RE: a quick word about automatics
Dec 23 2007, 12:08 PM EST This is a good example of the different doctrine the different branches of the military all teach (Preach). In the Army 500 meters is still all right to shoot at but it is considered area target at that range. We don't spend time on the 300 meter plus shots (without optics) because 90% of the time our engagements are between 300 and 5 meters. The Army wants to optimize speed at acquiring your target. I don't know what the Corps is going for or at what ranges the majority of their engagements take place, so I cannot critique their training. Now as a civilian I have dropped a deer out at about 750-800 meters, cross canyon. It wasn't a damn M16 that’s for sure. It was my .270 Rem. My favorite bolt action rifle. My grandfather gave me his rifle that was built on an original Mauser bolt and a match barrel. With custom oak furniture. I love this rifle. 3X9 Leopold. 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
 bundy747 |
RE: a quick word about automatics
Dec 31 2007, 5:54 AM EST Thank you!!!!! Finally someone else who not only understands the point of full auto weapons in a supperssion roll, but someone who understands that superession has no merrit when it comes to zombies! 0 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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bundy747 |
RE: a quick word about automatics
Dec 31 2007, 5:55 AM EST "The military doesn't train to use full auto. Controled pairs (not double taps) and bursts are all that are trained. Even the M4A1, M249 SAW, M2, M240 and Mk. 19 who all have full auto capabilities are taught to the troops to be used with bursts. The M16A2 (back bone of the US military) doesn't have an auto selection just single and burst (three round).my last quote was refering to this.... 0 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
 SuperSoldierRCP |
RE: a quick word about automatics
May 27 2008, 1:15 AM EDT "yes, full auto is crap against the undead legions. burst fire forever!"FORSHOW VAN DOES RULZZ 1 out of 3 found this valuable. Do you? |
 alicestar |
RE: a quick word about automatics
May 27 2008, 3:48 AM EDT "Yes, The military will have to adapt but the Marine Corps has long had a the motto "One Shot One Kill." every marine is a rifle man and when I was in, you were expected to hit a dog target at 1000 yards away, which could easily be converted to a head shot at 200 yards away. I could sit at top of my house with enough Ammo I could end the Zombie threat."1,000 yards is like 3/4 of a mile, scouts snipers train at 900m with a much higher cal. round plus the 556 M-16 (or M-4) drops like 14 inches at 500m. what did you do lob the rounds down range?? 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
