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Location: How a Zombie Virus could arise

Discussion: Big problems...

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elon	Big problems... Sep 17 2009, 2:15 PM EDT A Zombie virus has to be a VERY complex virus, but it does not have to "control our minds". The chance of it being developed in nature is minimal, tough a similar virus/bacteria that affects rats in a similar way to what a zombie virus would do it would need to mutate extremely much and fast which bacterias and viruses does not tend to do since they do not have sex and mix genes (DNA). It´s most likely that a human (like me :D) decides to create a "zombie virus". Though the infected would not truly be zombies the effects on the world will be pretty much the same. The biggest problem I see in designing this virus is not to make a human into a blood thirsty monster, that would "just" be to make a virus that disables the part of the brain controlling emotions such as guilt, love etc ( like someone after a lobotomy ) and then make the person feel incredible rage, hate, hunger etc and pump their body full with adrenalin. Then you would have someone wanting to kill more or less everything it sees and here´s where my problem comes in, how do you make them not attack each other making a zombie horde impossible. My first thought was that the zombies should put out a scent that calms them down (not much, but enough to stop the zombie to kill what smells that way), but this would require an extremely complex virus, changing/ adding behaviors to the brain, you would have to find a way to make a virus implant a scent into your brain and an extremely strong (calm) emotion to it so that it takes out the other emotions. This would take years if not decades to develop and I don´t really see who would like to sponsor it and even if you found someone who would (like the army) you would have to keep it extremely secret. An employee might find out what the project is about and realizing that he is compromising the survival of the human raise he would turn to the media and do everything in his power to stop it. Even the military has limits and are humans. Post reply Do you find this valuable? Keyword tags: Virus Zombie
PedroAsani	1. RE: Big problems... Sep 17 2009, 2:21 PM EDT Quite a Wall-o-Text going on here. Quick hint, after every few sentences... Make a space with the [Return] key, like this one above. It stops people from bleeding out of their eyes. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
PedroAsani	2. RE: Big problems... Sep 17 2009, 2:23 PM EDT "A Zombie virus has to be a VERY complex virus, but it does not have to "control our minds". The chance of it being developed in nature is minimal, tough a similar virus/bacteria that affects rats in a similar way to what a zombie virus would do it would need to mutate extremely much and fast which bacterias and viruses does not tend to do since they do not have sex and mix genes (DNA)." Wrong. The mixing of genes between viruses is EXACTLY what happens, and is documented by the Swine Flu being shown to have crossed paths with several different types (including avian flu) in the recent past. This is the reason everyone is scared that a more damaging mutation will begin spreading in the winter, when people are more susceptible to it. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
PedroAsani	3. RE: Big problems... Sep 17 2009, 2:25 PM EDT "It´s most likely that a human (like me :D) decides to create a "zombie virus"." Agreed. Whilst naturally occuring viruses have the possibility for zombification, I see it coming from a laboratory, generally looking to achieve a positive effect, such as longer lifespan, hibernation (for astronauts, etc), more aggressive soldiers, or even zombies-as-a-weapon, to be used on the enemy (chemical bomb the enemy populace and let them tear themselves apart) Post reply Do you find this valuable?
PedroAsani	4. RE: Big problems... Sep 17 2009, 2:29 PM EDT "Though the infected would not truly be zombies the effects on the world will be pretty much the same. The biggest problem I see in designing this virus is not to make a human into a blood thirsty monster, that would "just" be to make a virus that disables the part of the brain controlling emotions such as guilt, love etc ( like someone after a lobotomy ) and then make the person feel incredible rage, hate, hunger etc and pump their body full with adrenalin." Actually that wouldn't work. The continued use of adrenalin would overload the system and cause it to shut down. You would be looking to reproduce the effects of adrenaline, but in a non-destructive way. Removing pain recognition would increase strength and speed, but the price would be rapid damage to ligaments and muscles. Removing emotions is as easy as recreating the effects of depression. However that pretty much kills the motivation to do anything. Adding the hunger for human flesh would more likely make slow zombies. For fast hungry ones, you need to look at the people of Amok. Start there, recreate that but on a more communicable disease vector, and you might have something. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
PedroAsani	5. RE: Big problems... Sep 17 2009, 2:34 PM EDT "Then you would have someone wanting to kill more or less everything it sees and here´s where my problem comes in, how do you make them not attack each other making a zombie horde impossible. My first thought was that the zombies should put out a scent that calms them down (not much, but enough to stop the zombie to kill what smells that way), but this would require an extremely complex virus, changing/ adding behaviors to the brain, you would have to find a way to make a virus implant a scent into your brain and an extremely strong (calm) emotion to it so that it takes out the other emotions." Not if you believe that most diseases alter behaviour to increase their chance of spreading (which through natural selection, they do) Take snails. In the past, there were millions of different strains of parasites. They have multiple stages, and go from slugs, into bird guts, reproduce, out the other end of the bird, where they are eaten by slugs, and grow to adulthood. The most successful parasties (unknowingly) caused the slugs to make themselves more visible to birds, by teling them to crawl around on tops of leaves instead of underneath. The parasites also made their homes in the eye stalks, where they pulsed with many colours, attracting the attention of birds. So if the pathogen that causes zombies wants to spread successfully, it will cause zombies to attack only those animals that will carry the disease. If they attacked other zombies, then the disease would have a greater chance of being wiped out early. If you are genetically altering the virus, you can speed up its evolution, meaning you will only release the human-only attacking strain. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
PedroAsani	6. RE: Big problems... Sep 17 2009, 2:36 PM EDT "This would take years if not decades to develop and I don´t really see who would like to sponsor it and even if you found someone who would (like the army) you would have to keep it extremely secret. An employee might find out what the project is about and realizing that he is compromising the survival of the human race he would turn to the media and do everything in his power to stop it. Even the military has limits and are humans." Yes it would. However, for every unthinkable, unspeakable act, there is a human who is not only willing to do it, but Eager for the chance to do so. And there are good odds that he is not alone, not the first, and not the last. Faith in Humanity? Only if you count their greed, selfishness and short-sightedness. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
elon	7. RE: Big problems... Sep 17 2009, 3:14 PM EDT Yeah, but they mix genes with other viruses that the person already infected have, it would be very hard for a virus to develop a completely new property, it´s the cell that mixes their genes, right? If a cell is attacked by two viruses that are similar the cell could "blend" the DNA from both viruses creating a new virus, but the properties will come from the two (or more) that attacked the cell... Or am I completely wrong here? Post reply Do you find this valuable?
Whybother08	8. RE: Big problems... Sep 17 2009, 3:18 PM EDT "Yeah, but they mix genes with other viruses that the person already infected have, it would be very hard for a virus to develop a completely new property, it´s the cell that mixes their genes, right? If a cell is attacked by two viruses that are similar the cell could "blend" the DNA from both viruses creating a new virus, but the properties will come from the two (or more) that attacked the cell... Or am I completely wrong here?" While I don't immediately drain out people who talk anything about zombie properties, the people that say their characteristics like they are fact kind of annoy me. As there currently is no zombie virus, parasite, etc. etc. etc. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
elon	9. RE: Big problems... Sep 17 2009, 3:26 PM EDT The snail example is like the rat example (but the rats acts more like zombies), and yes I do believe that diseases can change (and even often do) change the behavior of the infected person. But since there are so many humans it will not make a difference for the virus if it attacks infected humans or not because the virus will spread so fast. Take the rat example (which I did not have enough room to mention), the infected rats start attacking other rats and kill themselves to spread the virus. Why they are attacking other rats is quite obvious, but they kill themselves too, why? Because they other animals will eat their remains and other rats will pass their remains and become infected. And if you have a city with infected corpses they will probably infect living humans too and the virus will survive in either case, but it is very complicated to differ between a healthy human and a infected human for the virus and the time it would take to mutate to get that property is very long and very unlikely because the virus would probably have wiped out the human raise and started to infect other animals before that happens. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
StrykerPez	10. RE: Big problems... Sep 17 2009, 7:42 PM EDT "While I don't immediately drain out people who talk anything about zombie properties, the people that say their characteristics like they are fact kind of annoy me. As there currently is no zombie virus, parasite, etc. etc. etc." True, but there are still medical and scientific rules that must be followed, zombie or not. That is what we are stating as fact, the already known things about viruses or other pathogens, and how those already proven and tested facts could translate into a zombie virus. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
StrykerPez	11. RE: Big problems... Sep 17 2009, 7:45 PM EDT "Even the military has limits and are humans." Our military, yes... (and even then, I'm not too comfortable that they will always do what is right). But what about some third-world crackpot in Nigeria? Terrorists fueled by religious hate? Leaders of a crumbling Ukraine who are desperate to do something? I could see any of those using either their own scientists or scientists kidnapped and told to create the virus or their family will be killed. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
PedroAsani	12. RE: Big problems... Sep 18 2009, 6:02 AM EDT "Yeah, but they mix genes with other viruses that the person already infected have, it would be very hard for a virus to develop a completely new property, it´s the cell that mixes their genes, right? If a cell is attacked by two viruses that are similar the cell could "blend" the DNA from both viruses creating a new virus, but the properties will come from the two (or more) that attacked the cell... Or am I completely wrong here?" Mutations naturally occur, without any noticeable outside influence. Most are killed off, others are useless, but a few will have new and interesting effects. That's how you get some people who are naturally immune to infections that haven't been seen before: they have a mutation that has shown no previous benefit, and so wasn't naturally selected for survival. Take something that infects insects. It kills all the wasps it encounters, except for this 1% mutation. But suddenly that 1% is the surviving 100%. Every future wasp will have that mutation. That's the fundamental precept for natural selection. "Survival of the fittest" does not mean the most athletic, like high school jocks would have you believe. Fittest means "those that are the best fit for the environment", and is why you have anteaters with long noses and tongues. If they had short noses, they would have died out. And the short-nosed ones did. So if a naturally occuring mutation makes a virus the "best fit" for survival, then it will rapidly spread, since less fit viruses will be killed off. MRSA is such a quick spreader because it survives antibiotics where others don't, and this gives it room to grow. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
PedroAsani	13. RE: Big problems... Sep 18 2009, 6:15 AM EDT "Our military, yes... (and even then, I'm not too comfortable that they will always do what is right). But what about some third-world crackpot in Nigeria? Terrorists fueled by religious hate? Leaders of a crumbling Ukraine who are desperate to do something? I could see any of those using either their own scientists or scientists kidnapped and told to create the virus or their family will be killed." These days I am siding with Jonathan Maberry. It won't be a country leader that makes it, it will be the CEO of a pharmaceutical company. The have the resources of several small countries at their disposal, in addition to all of the freedom to relocate wherever the laws will allow them to do what they want, and none of the bureaucracy. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
elon	14. RE: Big problems... Sep 18 2009, 4:27 PM EDT "So if a naturally occuring mutation makes a virus the "best fit" for survival, then it will rapidly spread, since less fit viruses will be killed off. MRSA is such a quick spreader because it survives antibiotics where others don't, and this gives it room to grow." Yeah, but that mutation occurs 1 time for every million "DNA split" (failure in replicating the DNA accurately) and that is (as you mentioned) almost always bad for the organism/ virus and that it should make such complex changes that a zombie virus that can identify normal humans and make the host attack it is just so small, but yes if you think aboutis one in a million times the number of infected times the number of times the virus replicates in a body will eventually be quite a lot, hence the bacteria that´s immune to a certain type of antibiotics and so on, but a zombie virus... I would go for the humans on this one :D Its up to us to ehh.. "set things right", humans are a cancer to earth that has to be cured or reduced! :D Post reply Do you find this valuable?

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