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Discussion: Building a zeppelin/blimp from scratch.Reported This is a featured thread

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Eritsukukun
Eritsukukun
20. RE: Building a zeppelin/blimp from scratch.
Sep 22 2009, 12:32 PM EDT | Post edited: Sep 22 2009, 12:32 PM EDT
why companies don't want to use them is a question with a infinite amount of answers. most of them are financial and political.
mostly its the price of helium that sinks the projects. if we find any helium it will be free as well as any material you find.

Im not saying that this is the first thing you should attempt in a apocalypse. you will need to have almost all the basics set before attempting something like this. you will need a stable power, water and food supply before considering something like this. And one should not ignore the kind of morale boost a project like this could be. a successful colony could attract survivors from the surrounding areas making your population go well beyond the hundred. They will need a project large enough to keep them from fighting each other.
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Akerris
Akerris
21. RE: Building a zeppelin/blimp from scratch.
Sep 22 2009, 4:27 PM EDT | Post edited: Sep 22 2009, 4:27 PM EDT
"why companies don't want to use them is a question with a infinite amount of answers. most of them are financial and political.
mostly its the price of helium that sinks the projects. if we find any helium it will be free as well as any material you find.

Im not saying that this is the first thing you should attempt in a apocalypse. you will need to have almost all the basics set before attempting something like this. you will need a stable power, water and food supply before considering something like this. And one should not ignore the kind of morale boost a project like this could be. a successful colony could attract survivors from the surrounding areas making your population go well beyond the hundred. They will need a project large enough to keep them from fighting each other."
Most survivors will see this as a waste of time and resources. A colony that decides to waste their time on a zeppelin has their priorities entirely in the wrong place. You forgot defenses, a working economy, tradesmen and specialists.

I saw this coming from far away, this is a pipe dream well on its way to attempting to take itself seriously. This discussion belongs in the implausible/impractical category so attaching it to plausible ideas like colonization is misleading and frankly irrelevant to people attempting to create survival plans.

I'm no longer watching or posting on this thread. I'll go to http://steampunk.ning.com/ if I want to talk about airships....
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kyallroad
kyallroad
22. RE: Building a zeppelin/blimp from scratch.
Sep 22 2009, 6:47 PM EDT | Post edited: Sep 22 2009, 6:47 PM EDT
Zeppelins/blimps are also hugely vulnerable to inclement weather. One good thunderstorm catches you in the open and it's crash landing time.

There is a reason the U.S. military gave up on them, if the government thought the blimp was an impractical idea then it REALLY is.
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USNtwidget
USNtwidget
23. RE: Building a zeppelin/blimp from scratch.
Sep 22 2009, 7:03 PM EDT | Post edited: Sep 22 2009, 7:03 PM EDT
The Zepplin has a better place in the Rebuilding humanity era, after we start trying to peice the world back together, but during a still fluid zombie enviroment i dont think you will have the stability nessecary to devote resources to this project 1  out of 1 found this valuable. Do you?    
EgAce
EgAce
24. RE: Building a zeppelin/blimp from scratch.
Sep 23 2009, 12:00 AM EDT | Post edited: Sep 23 2009, 12:00 AM EDT
"why companies don't want to use them is a question with a infinite amount of answers. most of them are financial and political.
mostly its the price of helium that sinks the projects. if we find any helium it will be free as well as any material you find.

Im not saying that this is the first thing you should attempt in a apocalypse. you will need to have almost all the basics set before attempting something like this. you will need a stable power, water and food supply before considering something like this. And one should not ignore the kind of morale boost a project like this could be. a successful colony could attract survivors from the surrounding areas making your population go well beyond the hundred. They will need a project large enough to keep them from fighting each other."
Yes, but the price is also a factor post z-day. If it's hugely expensive, who will have it? Unless you can find the goodyear blimp's place. That wouldn't be bad. (Blimp may or may not be included).

You need ALL the basics, ALL the moderate, and about half of the advanced technologies of the modern day to build a blimp. Plus, a huge supply of resorces, a way to find a huge amount of helium/hydrogen, and an entire factory, that builds custom blimp parts (or equivilent). If you have that big of a colony, you have other worries, like infastructure, and food. The morale boost will come after several years of labor, not before. Again, if you just happen to find a material that dosn't leak, then It's way more plausible. Or, steal the goodyear blimp.
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Eritsukukun
Eritsukukun
25. RE: Building a zeppelin/blimp from scratch.
Sep 23 2009, 5:10 AM EDT | Post edited: Sep 23 2009, 5:10 AM EDT
First of all.
This is the f-ing airship section!!! is supposed to discuss the different alternatives of flight!!! If you dont want to talk about flying things don't come here and spam that you don't!
second off all. I this all you do? browsing threads and tell them its stupid? how productive Is thats?!

sure I know its a big build. I understand the concepts of security and supply. those things will need to be covered. then what?
you have a patch of carrots. you have a patch of hemp? you have a river that supplies you with water and solar panels that supplies you with electricity.

then what? the thread subject does not stipulate when this fraction of a plan will come into play. understand that this is not a whole plan. the sole existence of the colony will not be dedicated to making this. It is a long term project in order to get some kind of infrastructure. no matter how large you make your colony you will always find a problem that cant be solved with the resources you have on hand.

you talk about tremendous resources and i don't get it.
you will need hydrogen that have other uses beside lift. it can power car engines since those cant be replaced by solar power.
You will also need a building material. usually they use aluminum and other light metals to archive this. there will be no problem with that because aluminum does not degrade in the same way food does. there will several million tons of scrap metal that you can use. there are entire building you can use since nobody is using it. there is so much scrap metal in the world that each person alive can be entitled to several hundred tons before there is a shortage.
finally you will need airtight fabric for the balloon. you will need to find fabrics regardless of what you are building since it can be used for anything. having a way to make it airtight is even better since it can improve life time expectancy of perishables.
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Eritsukukun
Eritsukukun
26. RE: Building a zeppelin/blimp from scratch.
Sep 23 2009, 5:36 AM EDT | Post edited: Sep 23 2009, 5:36 AM EDT
time is not a problem either since zeppelins have the advantage that they can be expanded. even if you just manage to build one cell it will still fly and be used for lifting things. if you attach a balloon with a lift of 10kg to something weighing 20kg you will have split the power needed to lift it by half. after a while you will have another cell ready that can also lift 10kg that can be used for marking where you are so that new survivors can find you (if that is what you wish).
after you have built enough cells you might be able to lift a person when the weather allows it. You now have a lookout post and can look for signs of life that could indicate the return of society or just plan a escape route in case of emergencies.
after additional time you will have enough cells to carry a person and additional supplies and that is the point where you can attempt to travel in order to expand your knowledge in aerodynamics as well as getting additional material by going to scrapyards. with the additional material gathered by the one man zeppelin you can build a 2 man zeppelin and increase range as well as safety.
the key is having the things you do useful in you other projects even if you can make it the size you need to have it fly to another settlement.

This is why I think it is the most plausible AIRCRAFT you can build on your own. That is why I started this thread because a apocalyptic event is the only time where zeppelins are more useful than any present aircraft. companies and military dont use them or even explore the possibility because they have reached a point where they can make even more implausible things.

You could have spent some time thinking all these things up and solve even more details. But that is clearly not what people do here.
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RisingTide
RisingTide
27. RE: Building a zeppelin/blimp from scratch.
Sep 23 2009, 5:42 AM EDT | Post edited: Sep 23 2009, 5:42 AM EDT
"time is not a problem either since zeppelins have the advantage that they can be expanded. even if you just manage to build one cell it will still fly and be used for lifting things. if you attach a balloon with a lift of 10kg to something weighing 20kg you will have split the power needed to lift it by half. after a while you will have another cell ready that can also lift 10kg that can be used for marking where you are so that new survivors can find you (if that is what you wish).
after you have built enough cells you might be able to lift a person when the weather allows it. You now have a lookout post and can look for signs of life that could indicate the return of society or just plan a escape route in case of emergencies.
after additional time you will have enough cells to carry a person and additional supplies and that is the point where you can attempt to travel in order to expand your knowledge in aerodynamics as well as getting additional material by going to scrapyards. with the additional material gathered by the one man zeppelin you can build a 2 man zeppelin and increase range as well as safety.
the key is having the things you do useful in you other projects even if you can make it the size you need to have it fly to another settlement.

This is why I think it is the most plausible AIRCRAFT you can build on your own. That is why I started this thread because a apocalyptic event is the only time where zeppelins are more useful than any present aircraft. companies and military dont use them or even explore the possibility because they have reached a point where they can make even more implausible things.

You could have spent some time thinking all these things up and solve even more details. But that is clearly not what people do here."
I think they are just throwing in the idea that this is to impractical, the amount of time and resources could best be spent else where.
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Eritsukukun
Eritsukukun
28. RE: Building a zeppelin/blimp from scratch.
Sep 23 2009, 6:12 AM EDT | Post edited: Sep 23 2009, 6:12 AM EDT
"I think they are just throwing in the idea that this is to impractical, the amount of time and resources could best be spent else where.
"
This is the deal.

Initial survival- Discussed at length
Initial Settlement - discussed at length
Guns- discussed at length
More guns- discussed at length
Sustainable energy and food- discussed at length
Nature of zombies- discussed at length
Possible cars- discussed at length
Aircrafts- only input is " no you cant do it go talk about the things above instead"
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PedroAsani
PedroAsani
29. RE: Building a zeppelin/blimp from scratch.
Sep 23 2009, 6:21 AM EDT | Post edited: Sep 23 2009, 6:21 AM EDT
I'm backing Eritsukukun here. This is a thread attached to the Aircraft section.

Building a zeppelin is going to be a long, arduous task. But I am going to be building a terraced farm, so I can relate. Provided this isn't his sole plan (I haz zeppelin, I lives forever coz zombies can't fly) then it is worth discussing the factors that will go into the construction.

The main areas are: gas, framework, canvas, cockpit, propulsion. Each area should be tackled separately, then together.
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Eritsukukun
Eritsukukun
30. RE: Building a zeppelin/blimp from scratch.
Sep 23 2009, 6:49 AM EDT | Post edited: Sep 23 2009, 6:49 AM EDT
*Gives PedroAsani a bear hug*

But you forgot to mention Hangar because you will need to protect it during its down time.
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PedroAsani
PedroAsani
31. RE: Building a zeppelin/blimp from scratch.
Sep 23 2009, 6:58 AM EDT | Post edited: Sep 23 2009, 6:58 AM EDT
"*Gives PedroAsani a bear hug*

But you forgot to mention Hangar because you will need to protect it during its down time."
Given the rate that you need to keep refilling the gas, would you want it to have much downtime?

It comes back to base for a personnel change and quick refill, possibly a refuel on the prop engine, then back out again.

Surely you only need a hangar during construction and repair, and both those times you would have it deflated? So you could use a barn or warehouse without needing to build something more specialised.
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Eritsukukun
Eritsukukun
32. RE: Building a zeppelin/blimp from scratch.
Sep 23 2009, 8:06 AM EDT | Post edited: Sep 23 2009, 8:06 AM EDT
zeppelins are Rigid and blimps can be deflated.
the problem with deflatable airships is that the hydrogen supply would need to be so much larger that its easier to build the hangar than the production units needed.
because you will need to park it every time there is signs of bad weather and that could be quite often depending on season.
under normal construction the zeppelin size and shape is determined by its hangar and that would be the case. if all you have is a barn you will only be able to build a zeppelin of that size or you will need to try expand it first.
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PedroAsani
PedroAsani
33. RE: Building a zeppelin/blimp from scratch.
Sep 23 2009, 8:53 AM EDT | Post edited: Sep 23 2009, 8:53 AM EDT
I see.

So what size building would you need for a zeppelin?

OR

Would a gas reclaimer (which sucks out the hydrogen and fills storage tanks) make a blimp more viable?
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EgAce
EgAce
34. RE: Building a zeppelin/blimp from scratch.
Sep 23 2009, 9:32 AM EDT | Post edited: Sep 23 2009, 9:32 AM EDT
"sure I know its a big build. I understand the concepts of security and supply. those things will need to be covered. then what?
you have a patch of carrots. you have a patch of hemp? you have a river that supplies you with water and solar panels that supplies you with electricity.

then what? the thread subject does not stipulate when this fraction of a plan will come into play. understand that this is not a whole plan. the sole existence of the colony will not be dedicated to making this. It is a long term project in order to get some kind of infrastructure. no matter how large you make your colony you will always find a problem that cant be solved with the resources you have on hand.

you talk about tremendous resources and i don't get it.
you will need hydrogen that have other uses beside lift. it can power car engines since those cant be replaced by solar power.
"
That's what I wanted to hear. The reason I talked about tremedous resorces is the sheer amount, not that all people won't need smaller portions of them.

And about scrap metal: it is doubtful you will find it in the right curve, angles, joints, and thickness to make a blimp: now what?

And, specifically, what type of fabric are you planning on? How are you going to get it?
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PedroAsani
PedroAsani
35. RE: Building a zeppelin/blimp from scratch.
Sep 23 2009, 10:03 AM EDT | Post edited: Sep 23 2009, 10:03 AM EDT
"That's what I wanted to hear. The reason I talked about tremedous resorces is the sheer amount, not that all people won't need smaller portions of them.

And about scrap metal: it is doubtful you will find it in the right curve, angles, joints, and thickness to make a blimp: now what?

And, specifically, what type of fabric are you planning on? How are you going to get it?"
Well with a forge, hammer, anvil, welding torch, and other tools similar to those from a foundry, you can make any metal any shape.

Fabric would have to be put together, although the first place to look would be the commercial and industrial drapers. Specialised printers would have large amounts of tough cloth on hand ( I have had special printing done before, and know of one firm in Manchester that can do single piece prints up to 80'x210' ) so if you know your BOL area well, you would be able to get most of these things on a scavenging run, although then you run into the logistics of transporting large objects.

You would need a truck, diesel fuel, and guards to keep off zombies and Raiders. But that is outside the scope of this thread.
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Eritsukukun
Eritsukukun
36. RE: Building a zeppelin/blimp from scratch.
Sep 23 2009, 11:19 AM EDT | Post edited: Sep 23 2009, 11:19 AM EDT
Exactly.
and we wont really be aiming for a Atlantic cruiser here. Most Zeppelins have a very distinct shape but there aren't really a "ideal" shape that you will need to achieve like with airplanes. if you have enough gas it will float like a ship either way. I saw a balloon shaped like a cow once... the closer you get to a tear shape the better tough. If you only have straight beams of something you should probably try to cut it up and angle the peaces until you get a roundish shape.

he kind of design I have in my head is that you build doughnut of the lightest material you can find and that will be one of the cells. the cell is placed within the ring (each cell is shaped like a burger that fits in the ring) and secured. the first 2 sections and cells would be shaped like cones. these 2 can either be used separably as Lifting help or emergency flag signals. when both have been manufactured you can bolt the 2 cones together to make a shape like this <>. this should lift 40-80kg depending on how large you think you can make the zeppelin. After that you start making rings and place them like sections like this <=> until you zeppelin have the lift you want. with this you will have a evolving zeppelin depending on how much material you have gathered.

The cloth is a major issue since its the hardest part to manufacture. the best thing would be to find a place where they make something similar. I think ive read somewhere that the old zeppelins used layers of different fabrics.

I have one theory where you treat some kind of nylon with a PVC shell but that require PVC pellets (the industrial kind because it will melt) and a way to heat it while spraying it over the Cell.
My other theory involves Used soda cans with some kind of sealant (Nobody said it had to be fabric. there are 4 recorded ships with a all metal envelope)



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PedroAsani
PedroAsani
37. RE: Building a zeppelin/blimp from scratch.
Sep 23 2009, 11:42 AM EDT | Post edited: Sep 23 2009, 11:42 AM EDT
Modular zeppelin? Genius idea. Would be interesting to see the theory tested to scale though. 1  out of 1 found this valuable. Do you?    
Eritsukukun
Eritsukukun
38. RE: Building a zeppelin/blimp from scratch.
Sep 23 2009, 11:48 AM EDT | Post edited: Sep 23 2009, 11:48 AM EDT
I would but in order to make a zeppelin like that you will need the money and even if you do have the money it would probably break a ******** of safety regulation regarding flying crafts. thats why I talked that complete anarchy is the only thing that would make a zeppelin possible again. at least one you can build yourself. 1  out of 1 found this valuable. Do you?    
PedroAsani
PedroAsani
39. RE: Building a zeppelin/blimp from scratch.
Sep 23 2009, 12:58 PM EDT | Post edited: Sep 23 2009, 12:58 PM EDT
You could do a scale model though.

Nothing to stop you doing one that measures 12 inches nose to tail.

Cost wise, probably $50 including the helium.
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