Location: Sword & Machete 101 by LJ126

Discussion: The sword of the Zombocaliptic futureReported This is a featured thread

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Domdabomb
20. RE: The sword of the Zombocaliptic future
Jan 12 2010, 11:50 AM EST | Post edited: Jan 12 2010, 11:50 AM EST
"Nice choices good sir!

I'm thinking of the 'Warrior' Series of Katana blades by Cold Steel.
"
the warrior series is the one mine are from as the emperor blades were a bit to expensive and the warrior series is more practical ( less fancy finishes)
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bionicghost
bionicghost
21. RE: The sword of the Zombocaliptic future
Jan 12 2010, 12:44 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 12 2010, 12:44 PM EST
Talking about katanas, what do you guys think of the sword buyer's guide's shop's $330 custom katanas? Do you find this valuable?    
BladeMCMLXX
BladeMCMLXX
22. RE: The sword of the Zombocaliptic future
Jan 12 2010, 3:40 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 12 2010, 3:44 PM EST
"Why bother when a machete has more use in non-combat roles?"
OK, Here is a test and challenge, Please try to one shot cut a wooden hardwood dowel, approx 1" in diameter with a machete, be fair and make the cut approx, neck level, these dowels can be bought pretty cheap at Lowe's or Home Depot. Now this is a "vague representation of a spine". It would be more likley that the blade would hit the vertebrate directly on the bone than one the connective disk. Also try it with the dowel secure on something steady and then try it with the dowel suspended from a rope from a tree. The reason I suggest this is that talking about it is just that, I propose that we get some testing on board to back up our ideas or to help refine our suggestions and thoughts on a particular subject. I will try these tests myself and report my findings on another thread. We are just starting on the spine, we can add a skin, muscle, and ligament representative later as the experiment progresses.
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Akerris
Akerris
23. RE: The sword of the Zombocaliptic future
Jan 15 2010, 4:36 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 15 2010, 4:36 PM EST
"OK, Here is a test and challenge, Please try to one shot cut a wooden hardwood dowel, approx 1" in diameter with a machete, be fair and make the cut approx, neck level, these dowels can be bought pretty cheap at Lowe's or Home Depot. Now this is a "vague representation of a spine". It would be more likley that the blade would hit the vertebrate directly on the bone than one the connective disk. Also try it with the dowel secure on something steady and then try it with the dowel suspended from a rope from a tree. The reason I suggest this is that talking about it is just that, I propose that we get some testing on board to back up our ideas or to help refine our suggestions and thoughts on a particular subject. I will try these tests myself and report my findings on another thread. We are just starting on the spine, we can add a skin, muscle, and ligament representative later as the experiment progresses. "
Wood is hardly a good representation of a human spine. Bones are segmented, porous and quite breakable. I agree that decapitation is not as easy as it looks but a dowel rod is not going to provide accurate results.

When Mythbusters performs similar experiments they use ballistics gel with pig bones in the proper locations.
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Filadog
Filadog
24. RE: The sword of the Zombocaliptic future
Jan 15 2010, 6:35 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 15 2010, 6:35 PM EST
Tradtionaly Japanese swords were tested on green bamboo of about 2 1/3 inch across which had a wet woven sleeping mat wraped around it bringing it's diameter out to about 8 inch. Should be able to slice right through no trouble.
Western Knife smiths like to cut free hanging rope.
I would think you could easly cut a 1 inch dowel that was held in place...one that was hanging freely from a rope I would consider impossiable to do unless maybe you struck downward on it so it wouldn't swing

Tests like this don't really prove to much about the knife or sword other then it is sharp, also that the person doing it knows how to do it correctly.
More to a good sword then cutting a stick.....T
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BladeMCMLXX
BladeMCMLXX
25. RE: The sword of the Zombocaliptic future
Jan 15 2010, 9:15 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 15 2010, 9:15 PM EST
While both of the previous statments are correct, I suggested the experiment to prove a point. Not all of us have access to ballistics gel and have budgets and equipment like the Myth Busters. This is a poor mans test and I ment the dowel to be more difficult to cut than a spine, since the spine is the goal after tissue and muscle have been severed. It is a presice cut that will remove a head, and I don't belive that the majority of us could do it effectivly and reapeatedly. The static cutting tests mentioned by Filadog are not trying to bite you and fend off the blade. So while this is a interesting subject to disscuss, I feel that decapatation is impractical and ultimatley a dangerous road to travel down. I still am going to do my test and look into a poor mans solution to ballistics jel, and further this topic, I have also done some gun drills with a handgun related to this subject that I will post on another thread. Make you own tests, line up a bunch of spines and heads and see how you do, the results will only help us all. Do you find this valuable?    
Carnack
Carnack
26. RE: The sword of the Zombocaliptic future
Jan 15 2010, 11:26 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 15 2010, 11:26 PM EST
"OK, Here is a test and challenge, Please try to one shot cut a wooden hardwood dowel, approx 1" in diameter with a machete, be fair and make the cut approx, neck level, these dowels can be bought pretty cheap at Lowe's or Home Depot. Now this is a "vague representation of a spine". It would be more likley that the blade would hit the vertebrate directly on the bone than one the connective disk. Also try it with the dowel secure on something steady and then try it with the dowel suspended from a rope from a tree. The reason I suggest this is that talking about it is just that, I propose that we get some testing on board to back up our ideas or to help refine our suggestions and thoughts on a particular subject. I will try these tests myself and report my findings on another thread. We are just starting on the spine, we can add a skin, muscle, and ligament representative later as the experiment progresses. "
How about you show me why cutting some wood with a machete would make a difference?

Beyond that it doesn't detract from the point.

A machete has more uses than just combat.

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Carnack
Carnack
27. RE: The sword of the Zombocaliptic future
Jan 15 2010, 11:30 PM EST | Post edited: Jan 15 2010, 11:30 PM EST
And to the OP.

The cheapest blade on there is $150 USC not counting shipping and handling.

I can find a functional piece for half that amount.
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Akerris
Akerris
28. RE: The sword of the Zombocaliptic future
Jan 16 2010, 12:36 AM EST | Post edited: Jan 16 2010, 12:36 AM EST
"While both of the previous statments are correct, I suggested the experiment to prove a point. Not all of us have access to ballistics gel and have budgets and equipment like the Myth Busters. This is a poor mans test and I ment the dowel to be more difficult to cut than a spine, since the spine is the goal after tissue and muscle have been severed. It is a presice cut that will remove a head, and I don't belive that the majority of us could do it effectivly and reapeatedly. The static cutting tests mentioned by Filadog are not trying to bite you and fend off the blade. So while this is a interesting subject to disscuss, I feel that decapatation is impractical and ultimatley a dangerous road to travel down. I still am going to do my test and look into a poor mans solution to ballistics jel, and further this topic, I have also done some gun drills with a handgun related to this subject that I will post on another thread. Make you own tests, line up a bunch of spines and heads and see how you do, the results will only help us all. "
The point I was trying to make is that the test is unnecessary. Either your blade is well made or not. People have been lopping off heads with swords for thousands of years with worse quality metal than we have today. You're better off spending the time and money finding a good quality piece.
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Sega_Rihdan
Sega_Rihdan
29. RE: The sword of the Zombocaliptic future
Jan 17 2010, 4:57 AM EST | Post edited: Jan 17 2010, 4:57 AM EST
honestly if were going to go with deadliness and usefulness then i would have to say the crowbar beats everything else. a crowbar can do almost anything a machete can do, that and you don't have to worry about an edge being sharp or not. just smash, smash more, and then when all else fails, smash it again. Do you find this valuable?    
Carnack
Carnack
30. RE: The sword of the Zombocaliptic future
Feb 17 2010, 9:00 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 17 2010, 9:00 PM EST
"honestly if were going to go with deadliness and usefulness then i would have to say the crowbar beats everything else. a crowbar can do almost anything a machete can do, that and you don't have to worry about an edge being sharp or not. just smash, smash more, and then when all else fails, smash it again."
Well a machete has the edge so cutting through dense brush is possible as is processing wood and game.

Plus in terms of blunt-force trauma vs focused edge trauma edge trauma wins.

I've been hit with a baseball back and had an arm messed up but I was still able to function.

If someone had landed the same blow with a longish blade I would have no doubt been rendered "armless".
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Akerris
Akerris
31. RE: The sword of the Zombocaliptic future
Feb 18 2010, 7:45 AM EST | Post edited: Feb 18 2010, 7:45 AM EST
"Well a machete has the edge so cutting through dense brush is possible as is processing wood and game.

Plus in terms of blunt-force trauma vs focused edge trauma edge trauma wins.

I've been hit with a baseball back and had an arm messed up but I was still able to function.

If someone had landed the same blow with a longish blade I would have no doubt been rendered "armless". "
Blunt force trauma is most effective when striking the brain, you're talking apples and oranges here.
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YourMom23
32. RE: The sword of the Zombocaliptic future
Feb 18 2010, 2:21 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 18 2010, 2:21 PM EST
Ugh...just because a sword can decapitate doesn't mean you can decapitate. Others have mentioned plenty about training, but to be more specific -- people who are absolutely masters at Kendo completely suck at cutting if they have no iaido training. The thing is, and this is quite noticeable in a katana, if you cannot maintain 100% control of the angle of attack, the blade's trajectory will start to curve the moment it encounters resistance. The most common result is the blade curving up and getting fouled in the skull, or curving down and getting stuck in the clavicle or upper ribs. Sometimes the shearing force is enough to chip the brittle edge of most katanas.

I have to agree that in the situation discussed here, something much simpler and cheaper would be infinitely more useful than a sword. A baseball bat with a thick nail hammered through the upper side can be handled by any untrained primate, and would require far less skill to cause cranial trauma than any sword worth considering.

As for the sword vs. baseball bat on the head, I wouldn't exactly 'want' either but in a wagering circumstance I would risk my life on an untrained jerk with a sword rather than an untrained jerk with a good club or baseball bat.

This academic discussion suffers from the same flaw as most of the guns and ammunition discussions -- all standard tests of effectiveness are thrown out the window, and are replaced with one and only one consideration -- can the weapon in question penetrate the cranium consistently when used at my personal skill level and in a range at which I am comfortable fighting?

I guess that's one consideration with two sub-clauses. Hmmm.

If you want a bladed weapon, get a machete or axe, something that has multiple uses and isn't as specialized as a sword.
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Carnack
Carnack
33. RE: The sword of the Zombocaliptic future
Feb 18 2010, 2:42 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 18 2010, 2:42 PM EST
"Blunt force trauma is most effective when striking the brain, you're talking apples and oranges here."
Okay cool. So where is the brain on a tree branch? How about a dead deer?
A rope?

Most humans will ALWAYS protect their head and can in fact function with broken bones.

Edge trauma can cut through skin (I hope!) and sever muscle resulting in dibilitating wounds.

I am not saying that blunt trauma is not effective when youc strike the head.

I'm saying that a blade doesn't require such finesse.

Hit an arm with a strong swing and a sharp blade and that arm is out of the picture.

But as I illustrated humans can function through blunt trauma.
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YourMom23
34. RE: The sword of the Zombocaliptic future
Feb 18 2010, 3:52 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 18 2010, 3:52 PM EST
The Romans quickly discovered that swinging/cutting blades are mediocre for fighting. A human can continue fighting with even a very large slash...which is why Romans relied on stabbing weapons, as even 2-3 inches of penetration is more likely to hit critical areas and disable tendons and major muscle groups. But neither slashes nor stabs are likely to be that effective against something that doesn't feel pain and doesn't respond to normally disabling blows. Not to mention range -- I'd much rather close with a sword wielder holding a cold steel boar spear with a well-tooled hardwood shaft.

Another testament to the mediocrity of many swords is during the 100 years war, I forget which campaign, one general commented that swords should never have been issued to a group of soldiers -- they were using them to clean and dress animals, cut logs, cut cloth, etc. The general commented that a small axe would have been more useful and no less an effective combat weapon.

In most pre-firearms armies, swords were either symbols of wealth and personal prowess, or last-ditch desperation weapons. Samurai didn't rely on the katana as their primary combat weapon. The Romans are remarkable in that they found a sword design useful for line-to-line combat (most armies by far utilized pole arms of one sort or another) - even then the sword was supported by a range of other weapons plus a very specialized group tactical formation that supported the use of said sword.

All that said, I do think that cold steel's two-handed machete is a good design. Cheap, easy to resharpen, similar to that chinese beheading sword in design, and utilitarian. I still think I could crack a cranium with a club more readily and with less practice than any sword, as well as recover in time for repeated strikes.

Swords are specialized weapons and we're discussing times when one cannot afford to be specialized.
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Carnack
Carnack
35. RE: The sword of the Zombocaliptic future
Feb 19 2010, 12:13 AM EST | Post edited: Feb 19 2010, 12:13 AM EST
"YourMom23: Comment #34"
While stabbing is more lethal than a slash a slash allows for a more fluid approach.

In addition pain with a slash is irrelevant.

I cut off a leg or severe necessary muscles pain becomes irrelevant as it still will not be able to operate that part.

Swords after a time DID become secondary weapons but that doesn't make them mediocre. Just outdated.

Knife -> sword -> spear -> bow and arrow -> long rifle -> assualt rifle.

That is just tech advancment. If a DEW is ever invented after a time it will replace assualt rifles if properly dealt with.



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Akerris
Akerris
36. RE: The sword of the Zombocaliptic future
Feb 19 2010, 7:01 AM EST | Post edited: Feb 19 2010, 7:01 AM EST
"Okay cool. So where is the brain on a tree branch? How about a dead deer?
A rope?

Most humans will ALWAYS protect their head and can in fact function with broken bones.

Edge trauma can cut through skin (I hope!) and sever muscle resulting in dibilitating wounds.

I am not saying that blunt trauma is not effective when youc strike the head.

I'm saying that a blade doesn't require such finesse.

Hit an arm with a strong swing and a sharp blade and that arm is out of the picture.

But as I illustrated humans can function through blunt trauma."
One, with humans getting smacked in the elbow, fingers, or any joints for that matter with a blunt object sucks beyond all belief to the point of being non functional. I've been hit in the kneecap and skull with a shinai and was pretty much rendered useless.

Two, we most manifestations of zombies wouldn't be too concerned about putting their arms up to defend themselves making the head a pretty nice target.
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Carnack
Carnack
37. RE: The sword of the Zombocaliptic future
Feb 19 2010, 7:33 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 19 2010, 7:33 PM EST
"One, with humans getting smacked in the elbow, fingers, or any joints for that matter with a blunt object sucks beyond all belief to the point of being non functional. I've been hit in the kneecap and skull with a shinai and was pretty much rendered useless.

Two, we most manifestations of zombies wouldn't be too concerned about putting their arms up to defend themselves making the head a pretty nice target."
So you would be able to aim for a target the size of a basketball (head), or a baseball (joints/ hands) while under pressure and in full knowlege that one misshap means your life?

Aiming for a joint is a viable tactic...that is much harder when under pressure. Personal experience talking here.

So you have a weapon that is good against a Z and sub-par against a human.

A blade doesn't need you to target a joint nor will it decrease in effectivness when faced with a human.

In addition outside of combat a blade holds more value with helping your overall survival.
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182crazyking
182crazyking
38. RE: The sword of the Zombocaliptic future
Feb 20 2010, 12:58 AM EST | Post edited: Feb 20 2010, 12:58 AM EST
Things like chain link fences, metal house supports, and furniture will be torn down and melted. The liquid metal will be poured into molds made by scavenged Plaster of Paris. Survivors would then sharpen the new swords on desk grinders that they could have no doubt scavenged. Do you find this valuable?    
Carnack
Carnack
39. RE: The sword of the Zombocaliptic future
Feb 20 2010, 1:02 AM EST | Post edited: Feb 20 2010, 1:02 AM EST
"Things like chain link fences, metal house supports, and furniture will be torn down and melted. The liquid metal will be poured into molds made by scavenged Plaster of Paris. Survivors would then sharpen the new swords on desk grinders that they could have no doubt scavenged."
I'll just build a foot-run rotary grinder.
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