Location: Sword & Machete 101 by LJ126

Discussion: Issues with article

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brandon_a_boyer	Issues with article Dec 16 2009, 3:58 AM EST I feel that your section on materials is grossly oversimplified and contains erroneous information. First of all, not all tool steels are the same. Many in fact are extremely brittle. Because of this, their use in swords would be extremely limited. Secondly your information on stainless steel is also wrong. Stainless steels specifically use Chromium as an alloying element, not nickle. Additionally, stainless steels are not by nature brittle. The primary reason that few swords are made from stainless steel is that it cannot be forged by a smith without causing problems with sugaring. We live in the 21st century. Stop trying to cling to antiquated knowledge and apply advanced knowledge and research to better, stronger blades from materials that will not break, rust, or loose their edge. Post reply Do you find this valuable? Keyword tags: attack fight how longsword short sword sword swordfight swords to zombies
Carnack	1. RE: Issues with article Dec 16 2009, 4:28 AM EST \| Post edited: Dec 16 2009, 4:29 AM EST "I feel that your section on materials is grossly oversimplified and contains erroneous information. First of all, not all tool steels are the same. Many in fact are extremely brittle. Because of this, their use in swords would be extremely limited. Secondly your information on stainless steel is also wrong. Stainless steels specifically use Chromium as an alloying element, not nickle. Additionally, stainless steels are not by nature brittle. The primary reason that few swords are made from stainless steel is that it cannot be forged by a smith without causing problems with sugaring. We live in the 21st century. Stop trying to cling to antiquated knowledge and apply advanced knowledge and research to better, stronger blades from materials that will not break, rust, or loose their edge." Actually most tool-grade steels are soft for durability and that is what makes them lousy with anything involving a blade. Soft steels while strong can't hold an edge under use. Chromium is one thing used but nickel is also applicable. Stainless steels are often brittle and so when making a long thin sword the strength of such a piece will bes stressed to the breaking point. We got the the 21st century using knowlege now refered to as antiquated (with is not the same as incorrect). And all metals degrade. That's physics. We will always try to return to our base elements. So all steels will degrade. We simply try to slow it down. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
brandon_a_boyer	2. RE: Issues with article Dec 16 2009, 2:27 PM EST That is incorrect sir. While Nickel is used as an alloying element in many steels, for a steel to be called stainless, it must contain a certain percentage of chromium (generally about 10.5%). The chromium forms an oxide layer on the outside of the metal that prevents internal oxidation of the metal. As a generalization the stainless steels have: Higher work hardening rate Higher ductility Higher strength and hardness Higher hot strength Higher corrosion resistance Higher cryogenic toughness Lower magnetic response (austenitic only) Must retain corrosion resistant surface in the finished product. These properties apply particularly to the austenitic family (containing at least 16% chromium and 6% nickel) and to varying degrees to other grades and families. As far as tool grade steel is concerned i'm going to be a bit lazy today and just pull some quotes from onlinemetals.com "Generally speaking, Tool Steels are known for their distinctive toughness, resistance to abrasion, their ability to hold a cutting edge, and/or their resistance to deformation at elevated temperatures (red-hardness). Some of the operations that tool steels are used in include Drawing, Blanking, Mold Inserts, Stamping, Metal Slitting, Forming and Embossing, although they are not limited to just those areas." A good example would be A-2 drill rod. You can sharpen this steel and it will hold a cutting edge all day, but if you pop it in a vise and apply an impact at a shear angle, then it will break cleanly. I'm not saying that antiqued knowledge is not correct. However the 21st century knowledge that we "got" should be properly applied. Use all of the tools at your disposal, otherwise you'll be left behind. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
Carnack	3. RE: Issues with article Dec 16 2009, 2:42 PM EST Actually just look at drill bits. Those thingsre tough yes but can and do snap. Soft steels (when compared to hard steels) are stronger in their ability to not break under pressure. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
deathseekrakodo	4. RE: Issues with article Dec 16 2009, 3:30 PM EST "Actually just look at drill bits. Those thingsre tough yes but can and do snap. Soft steels (when compared to hard steels) are stronger in their ability to not break under pressure." thats the measure of "ductility", generally cast iron=soft, tool steel=more hard and brittle, and stainless=usually somewhere in the middle. the beautiful thing about metal is that as long as you understand what your doing you can do almost any thing with any metal (or group of metals as required). my favorite material for blades is spring steel forge welded with another steel, (ie very hard steel for blades under 12" and softer steels for blades over) Post reply Do you find this valuable?
Carnack	5. RE: Issues with article Dec 16 2009, 3:32 PM EST "thats the measure of "ductility", generally cast iron=soft, tool steel=more hard and brittle, and stainless=usually somewhere in the middle. the beautiful thing about metal is that as long as you understand what your doing you can do almost any thing with any metal (or group of metals as required). my favorite material for blades is spring steel forge welded with another steel, (ie very hard steel for blades under 12" and softer steels for blades over)" Actually it depends on the tool I suppose. A tool using a blade would need hard steele but most impact tools need soft steels. Soft steels bend rather than snap. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
brandon_a_boyer	6. RE: Issues with article Dec 16 2009, 3:39 PM EST "cast iron=soft" Cast iron is even more brittle than tool steel. Its carbon content is between 2% and 6% compared to the .5% to 1% of High Carbon Steels. It's lack of ductility is exactly why it is so difficult to weld cast iron. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
LJ126	7. RE: Issues with article Dec 16 2009, 3:47 PM EST \| Post edited: Dec 16 2009, 3:53 PM EST Brandon, exactly how much experience do you have with swords? Do you own any at all? Do you know how much more expensive a sword would be if it used high quality stainless steel? Let's pick this bone you've brought to the table... This article has nothing to do with creating a sword. Period. It has more to do with PURCHASING a sword from a reputable sword manufacturer. While I agree, there are steels out there that are superior for sword use, the price is prohibitive, and therefore the manufacturers don't use them. Nobody would buy them! Typically, sword manufacturers use 1040-1095 steel, and the "stainless" swords are made of 400 grade steel. If you can find a SINGLE sword made from high quality stainless steel (that is more durable than good ol' carbon steel) that is under $300, I will sh!t an ingot of brass. I'm POSITIVE that you can make a superior sword using superior methods and materials, but why? It would cost a considerable amount of money to do so, much more than it would be worth to anyone. If I had 3 grand laying around, I wouldn't buy a freaking sword with it. Nobody else would either. Hell, you could (in theory) make a sword entirely from titanium, that would be as durable as the toughest steel and weigh 2/3's, but it would cost as much as a new car. Where's the point in that? Maybe you should do some research on currently manufactured swords my friend, especially before critically analyzing the content of someone else's work. It is what it is, and the fact remains that currently manufactured stainless steel swords are INFERIOR. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
deathseekrakodo	8. RE: Issues with article Dec 16 2009, 3:52 PM EST "Cast iron is even more brittle than tool steel. Its carbon content is between 2% and 6% compared to the .5% to 1% of High Carbon Steels. It's lack of ductility is exactly why it is so difficult to weld cast iron." i believe i mesled you, when i said cast iron what i meant was structural type steel or "pig iron" (its a bad habit from my dad to call it cast iron lol) Post reply Do you find this valuable?
deathseekrakodo	9. RE: Issues with article Dec 16 2009, 3:55 PM EST " Maybe you should do some research on currently manufactured swords my friend, especially before critically analyzing the content of someone else's work. It is what it is, and the fact remains that currently manufactured stainless steel swords are INFERIOR." stainless usually isn't the cause of the swords lack of usability, so much as inferior manufacturing (ie, pockets of air in the metal, rat tails, and so fourth) imo...i have several stainless blades that i've worked for years and had no problem, then i've had some that broke while trying to clear light brush. like you said lj, its all about the manufacturer nowadays Post reply Do you find this valuable?
brandon_a_boyer	10. RE: Issues with article Dec 16 2009, 4:03 PM EST "i believe i mesled you, when i said cast iron what i meant was structural type steel or "pig iron" (its a bad habit from my dad to call it cast iron lol)" That is another incorrect statement. Pig iron is the result of smelting iron with coke. It generally has a carbon content of 3.5% to 4.5%. Structural steel varies, but the most popular steel is A36 which has a carbon content of .26%, making it a low carbon steel. Either way, you are correct in saying that structural steel is soft, which allows for a good modulus of elasticity. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
LJ126	11. RE: Issues with article Dec 16 2009, 4:07 PM EST Indeed. I'm sure that we could create a sword out of H1 steel that could be submerged in salt water for years before showing wear but there's not any reason for it. It would be a waste of time if the owner didn't study some form of HEMA to use the weapon. Talk about "antiquated ideas" on a sword discussion...pssht. Irony anyone? Another important consideration is that swords created now (using superior steel and tooling) are actually inferior to the ones created 500 years ago! Why is this? Because the sword isn't the pinnacle of war-making infantry technology anymore, nobody's life is staked on the quality of their sword. I hate to make an example of you because you're correct, but its not MY fault that swords are made the way that they are. They just are. Its was my intention to keep things in this article SIMPLE for those who might be interested in getting into sword play that don't want a physics or earth science lesson and might be discouraged by too much information. I'm not a steel snob, and while I know a little bit about the various steels used, it was my intention to steer "sword newbies" away from the concept of stainless because those swords are MEANT FOR DECORATING LIVING ROOMS. The "carbon steel" swords were meant for use. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
brandon_a_boyer	12. RE: Issues with article Dec 16 2009, 4:46 PM EST \| Post edited: Dec 16 2009, 4:47 PM EST Hey, I can appreciate the point behind your article, however I feel that there is a strong misconception about material strengths and uses. Because metallurgy is a big part of my field, i feel obligated to correct these misconceptions. Just like one feels obligated to correct a person who calls a magazine a "clip". So for that reason, I intend to point out a few more errors you made on this page, followed by a few you made in your article. 1. Swords and Knives have been made out of titanium. They are absolute garbage for 3 reasons. First, titanium is very reactive, which is why it has to be welded in an inert environment Second which lb for lb titanium has a higher tensile strength than steel. volumetrically speaking, steels generally have a stronger cross-sectional strength. and third, titanium is relatively soft, and cannot hold an edge. "swords today are superior to swords made 500 years ago" Total ********. They covered this on weaponmasters, within two days they made a sword that was every bit as good as a sword that a Japanese smith spent weeks on. getting back to your article "Tangs that have been affixed by MIG/TIG welds are simply not durable enough for use. It is not uncommon for the welds to break while the sword is being swung" While I generally agree that full tangs are best. The concept of welded tangs is mis-leading. Properly welded, the base metal will fail before the weld will, so it is either a problem in the base-metal, or a poorly done weld. ""stainless" nature; it is an alloy of steel and nickel, the nickel making it resistant to rust" Again misleading. Firstly while stainless steels generally have Nickel in them, Chromium is the reason that steels are stainless. For a steel to be considered stainless it must have at least 6% chromium content. Unfortunately in higher amounts, Chromium can imbrittle steel. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
brandon_a_boyer	13. RE: Issues with article Dec 16 2009, 4:53 PM EST However, there are stainless alloys that are used in larger knives, that would prove superior to the mythical "high carbon steel" "spring steel" or the wonderful "tool steel". Although I agree, almost all of the current stainless swords on the market are garbage. I just felt that your wording was poorly done, point out that there are stainless alloys out there, just that they aren't widely used. Before the end of my four years here I intend to make a hand and a half sword in the lab using high end alloys. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
DLOWTHEMAD	14. RE: Issues with article Dec 16 2009, 4:58 PM EST \| Post edited: Dec 16 2009, 5:03 PM EST As near as I can tell, older european swords( pre 1800s) must have been rather soft really. A person buying a sword at that time would have have spent roughly 4 times the average common laborers annual wages on a cheap model. They would want a sword that would not break easily, they wanted something that would deform but be repairable EASILY on the battle field. You bend your sword, just bend it back and go to town. Only the edge and tip would have been hardish steel to hold an edge and punch armour. What good is a sword that would have broken when you faced an opponent who was a match for you. Alot of people I've met and talked to talk about how great this steel type or that would be, but really I would rather have something I know will stand up to any abuse, and all the repair I would have to do is straighten it and sharpen it with a sedimentary rock. >edit< - My point is that while someone might complain that a softer steel weapon might not hold an edge well, if you intend on using it much your gonna have to sharpen it anyway. Harder steels take longer to sharpen, so is it better to have an edge last twice as long but take 3 times as long to sharpen? Post reply Do you find this valuable?
brandon_a_boyer	15. RE: Issues with article Dec 16 2009, 5:00 PM EST "As near as I can tell, older european swords( pre 1800s) must have been rather soft really. A person buying a sword at that time would have have spent roughly 4 times the average common laborers annual wages on a cheap model. They would want a sword that would not break easily, they wanted something that would deform but be repairable EASILY on the battle field. You bend your sword, just bend it back and go to town. Only the edge and tip would have been hardish steel to hold an edge and punch armour. What good is a sword that would have broken when you faced an opponent who was a match for you. Alot of people I've met and talked to talk about how great this steel type or that would be, but really I would rather have something I know will stand up to any abuse, and all the repair I would have to do is straighten it and sharpen it with a sedimentary rock. " They problem with that is that swords that are tough and malleable cannot hold an edge, and are very difficult to sharpen. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
DLOWTHEMAD	16. RE: Issues with article Dec 16 2009, 5:08 PM EST \| Post edited: Dec 16 2009, 5:10 PM EST "They problem with that is that swords that are tough and malleable cannot hold an edge, and are very difficult to sharpen. " In my experience just a few minutes with any old piece of grainy rock will sharpen it enough to be useful. Softer steels are easier to sharpen, mostly because it's easier to improvise a whet stone. Older techniques for sword making may be better because they centered around making weapons that could be used for generations, reliable, tough, and resilient. Sure there are better materials(supposedly) now, but I'm sure if the older smiths had needed it they would have figured it out. They brought about 75% of our metalurgical knowledge. The edit above was made before I read your comment. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
LJ126	17. RE: Issues with article Dec 16 2009, 5:14 PM EST That's fair, I'll admit that the wording in the article was intentionally misleading and sophomoric, but it wasn't meant for steel aficionados. It was meant for those poor souls who either cannot own firearms in their area and need some sort of defensive measure, or those who are dorks and want a functional sword. There are some great blade steels that are "stainless" that would certainly do the job for a sword, but there currently aren't any swords available that are made in those materials. I'd love to see a full tang modern reproduction of a falchion constructed from something like D2, Sandvik 14C28N or 9Cr13CoMoV, though the last seems awfully brittle or would require a very careful heat treatment. The problem is that I think the costs of something like that would be extremely prohibitive, though the product would be superior. While I'm no steel expert, the only real weakness that I see of steels like 5160, 1040 or 1095 are corrosion resistance. They're duly durable and hold an edge sufficiently, they are easy to manufacture (which keeps costs down) but they're just not very resistant to the elements. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
Carnack	18. RE: Issues with article Dec 16 2009, 5:18 PM EST ""swords today are superior to swords made 500 years ago" Total ********. They covered this on weaponmasters, within two days they made a sword that was every bit as good as a sword that a Japanese smith spent weeks on. " He never said this. He said that today's swords are inferior to those made 500 years ago. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
LJ126	19. RE: Issues with article Dec 16 2009, 5:22 PM EST \| Post edited: Dec 16 2009, 5:24 PM EST "He never said this. He said that today's swords are inferior to those made 500 years ago." And besides, I wasn't referring to the Katana. I was referring to something constructed in Europe circa 1500 AD. Those swords are more durable that anything in production. And just because they did it on TV doesn't make it universal. We're talking about production swords, not a 1-time attempt and besting the katana. Post reply Do you find this valuable?

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Location: Sword & Machete 101 by LJ126

Discussion: Issues with article

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