Location: Subterranean Living

Discussion: Did I miss anything in writing the article?

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LLukeL	Did I miss anything in writing the article? Jan 15 2010, 4:51 PM EST As is my goal to both disseminate and improve knowledge, including my own, I will start this thread to deal with anything important you think I may have missed or left out in the writing of the above article. Comments too on the article are welcome here, and I wish to improve the above article as necessary, perfecting it more and more as time goes on. Post reply Do you find this valuable? Keyword tags: Bunker Bunkers Burrow Burrowing Living Mole Subterranean Termite Tunnel Tunnelling Underground
Reaper37	1. RE: Did I miss anything in writing the article? Jan 15 2010, 5:08 PM EST The article seems like good ground to cover. I completely agree with underground living, especially if possible to build your base within a mountain, the entrance could be somewhere up the side of it providing better concealment and higher ground for observation when needed. One thing you would also have to make sure you dont forget to add is some type of ventilation system, dont want to die from lack of oxygen in your new and really cool home. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
timberrattler	2. RE: Did I miss anything in writing the article? Jan 15 2010, 6:21 PM EST LLukeL, Here is an article from Purdue University about raising pharmacutical grade grain underground in an old limestone quarry. http://www.purdue.edu/UNS/html4ever/2005/050420.Ausenbaugh.mine.html This article will justify many of your theories and I have to say I'm very much impressed with your research into this subject and I'll go back over your page and see if I can't find a few holes for you to fill. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
LLukeL	3. RE: Did I miss anything in writing the article? Jan 15 2010, 7:01 PM EST "One thing you would also have to make sure you dont forget to add is some type of ventilation system, dont want to die from lack of oxygen in your new and really cool home. " Wasn't terribly sure about ventilation in terms of how-to, but I completely agree. If you look at Points Two and Three, and search for the word "air", you see I mention the need for some primitive ventilation system (air holes). --Luke Post reply Do you find this valuable?
LLukeL	4. RE: Did I miss anything in writing the article? Jan 26 2010, 1:23 AM EST One thing that I have found that I have forgotten to mention is to NOT be in the tunnels while the concrete cures. A) it gets real hot in there and B) the process uses oxygen that you need to live, don't compete for it unless you absolutely have to. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
Eritsukukun	5. RE: Did I miss anything in writing the article? Jan 26 2010, 5:25 AM EST I like the idea as I like all ideas that are considered impossible. First problem is that you cant dig this yourself during an outbreak. to dig out areas large enough to create a perfect bio dome. The man power required would take you decades to build yourself. a better choice would be to buy an old military base or depleted mine and take it from there. Second problem is power. if you plan on growing things underground as a food source a man powered generator will not work by far and solar panels would create problems with concealment. I will actively search for solar panels and so will everyone with half a brain. And you will need more solar panels than the stuff you intend to grow. On top of that you will need power to for heat and lighting and pumps creating air flow. A energy solution that I would suggest it something called wave generators. They use the energy from waves to produce energy. since they are below the waterline they are completely invisible from the surface and maintain the goal of being stealthy. There will still need to be an awful lot of them to enable the kind of energy consumption needed to grow stuff underground. 3 links from Ted that are relevant here. Oxygen generation: http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/kamal_meattle_on_how_to_grow_your_own_fresh_air.html General thoughts on biospheres http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/jane_poynter_life_in_biosphere_2.html Fungi http://blog.ted.com/2008/05/paul_stamets.php The third one I found while looking for the other 2. I haven't finished it yet but it seems relevant enough. they might not glow in the dark but some do grow there and are edible. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
Reaper37	6. RE: Did I miss anything in writing the article? Jan 26 2010, 10:47 AM EST "Wasn't terribly sure about ventilation in terms of how-to, but I completely agree. If you look at Points Two and Three, and search for the word "air", you see I mention the need for some primitive ventilation system (air holes). --Luke" Yep your right, you did mention about an air system i must have overlooked it, I do apologize. I agree though, as mentioned the article is very good. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
Eritsukukun	7. RE: Did I miss anything in writing the article? Jan 28 2010, 4:50 PM EST I did some research on the subject of mushrooms and it turns out that no mushrooms need sunlight (UV radiation). Some needs a small amount of light to bare fruit properly but as far as I can tell a normal light bulb would be quite enough. By growing a large number of different mushrooms with different nutritional stats you could grow a good portion of your food with minimum lighting. It needs some temperature and and humidity control but that goes for any lighting. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
LLukeL	8. RE: Did I miss anything in writing the article? Jan 30 2010, 4:41 PM EST "...By growing a large number of different mushrooms with different nutritional stats you could grow a good portion of your food with minimum lighting. It needs some temperature and and humidity control but that goes for any lighting. " However, many mushrooms are very poisonous and even many mycologists are not willing to stake their own lives on their on their skills. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edible_mushroom#Preparing_wild_edibles Post reply Do you find this valuable?
Eritsukukun	9. RE: Did I miss anything in writing the article? Jan 31 2010, 5:17 AM EST "However, many mushrooms are very poisonous and even many mycologists are not willing to stake their own lives on their on their skills. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edible_mushroom#Preparing_wild_edibles" That is why you start growing them BEFORE the outbreak. My point depend on getting the shelter, solving the power and getting the water systems. If you plan on growing sun based vegetables you will still need to fix a solid power supply. And have 10 times as many UV lights as you need due to the very limited life span of light bulbs. The amounts of scavenging you will need to do in addition to the ludicrous amounts of digging will require you to have another fully working BOL next to the other one. Then what is the point? Grand schemes require preparation in order to work. You cant start digging when SHTF. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
PedroAsani	10. RE: Did I miss anything in writing the article? Jan 31 2010, 5:34 AM EST \| Post edited: Jan 31 2010, 5:36 AM EST "That is why you start growing them BEFORE the outbreak. My point depend on getting the shelter, solving the power and getting the water systems. If you plan on growing sun based vegetables you will still need to fix a solid power supply. And have 10 times as many UV lights as you need due to the very limited life span of light bulbs. The amounts of scavenging you will need to do in addition to the ludicrous amounts of digging will require you to have another fully working BOL next to the other one. Then what is the point? Grand schemes require preparation in order to work. You cant start digging when SHTF. " NOT UV lights. Ultraviolet rays are what damage plants, same as human skin (that's why sunscreen blocks UV rays) Lights used to grow indoors are Metal Halide or High Pressure Sodium, although LED clusters are becoming increasingly popular due to their low power consumption and low heat output. As for the lifespan of the bulbs, you typically replace them at about 10,000 hours. That is over a year of constant use, or almost 2 years of 18 hour days. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
PapiSantos	11. RE: Did I miss anything in writing the article? Jan 31 2010, 5:49 AM EST Hot water a heating: An excellent way to get luke warm water is compost. Wait... compost? Yeah compost. Say you have a huge pit with a 2-3tonnes of green vegetation and metal pipes circling around it, cover it and when it breaks down it will be quite warm (slow cooking sort of warm) In fact best putting it all in an airtight container so you can harvest methane for a generator. Add a boxed 'oven' section into the wall of the container and two stove burner and you got 1. methane Gas for the generator, 2. Hot water system, 3.cooking facilities Another idea is to have 'knocked out' roofless houses on the surfaces with the roof removed and all entrances blocked with debris. these little walled havens could fit your garden beds, solar arrays and rainwater catchers. Unspottable from the outside Post reply Do you find this valuable?
Eritsukukun	12. RE: Did I miss anything in writing the article? Jan 31 2010, 8:30 AM EST "NOT UV lights. Ultraviolet rays are what damage plants, same as human skin (that's why sunscreen blocks UV rays) Lights used to grow indoors are Metal Halide or High Pressure Sodium, although LED clusters are becoming increasingly popular due to their low power consumption and low heat output. As for the lifespan of the bulbs, you typically replace them at about 10,000 hours. That is over a year of constant use, or almost 2 years of 18 hour days." I stand corrected. Lets just call them grow lights. The main point remains. Grow lights are even rarer. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
Eritsukukun	13. RE: Did I miss anything in writing the article? Jan 31 2010, 8:42 AM EST \| Post edited: Jan 31 2010, 9:39 AM EST "Hot water a heating: An excellent way to get luke warm water is compost. Wait... compost? Yeah compost. Say you have a huge pit with a 2-3tonnes of green vegetation and metal pipes circling around it, cover it and when it breaks down it will be quite warm (slow cooking sort of warm) In fact best putting it all in an airtight container so you can harvest methane for a generator. Add a boxed 'oven' section into the wall of the container and two stove burner and you got 1. methane Gas for the generator, 2. Hot water system, 3.cooking facilities Another idea is to have 'knocked out' roofless houses on the surfaces with the roof removed and all entrances blocked with debris. these little walled havens could fit your garden beds, solar arrays and rainwater catchers. Unspottable from the outside" Well you do need vast amounts of compost to grow anything underground. Edit: Found 2 links about military bunkers. http://www.missilebases.com/ http://www.subbrit.org.uk/ Post reply Do you find this valuable?
PapiSantos	14. RE: Did I miss anything in writing the article? Feb 1 2010, 3:18 AM EST \| Post edited: Feb 1 2010, 3:18 AM EST forgot one extra detail, one extra pipe for the gas fridge Post reply Do you find this valuable?
LLukeL	15. RE: Did I miss anything in writing the article? Feb 3 2010, 2:53 PM EST \| Post edited: Feb 3 2010, 2:53 PM EST Gentlemen, all wonderful ideas, but a couple of issues that I have: 1) It doesn't matter how early you prepare, a cooked poison mushroom is still a poison mushroom. The only way to find out is to take a bite, and few people would risk that. By then, if not poisonous, half the mushroom is gone! 2) How much compost would you need? A LOT! I know that composting is an exothermic chemical reaction and can create tremendous amounts of heat, but raising the temperature of several gallons of water per minute from approx 15C to 24C still requires quite a bit of energy, and to produce that energy would still require a massive space for an equally massive stinking hulk. As in the article, the idea to concealment is sensory concealment, If someone (or worse yet, a zed) above ground smells something, but sees nothing, suspicion goes on the rise. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composting#Compost_Odor Also combine this with the mushrooms above, If you got poisonous fungus spreading spores into our mushroom colonies, poisoning our food supply. 3) I love the idea of using the methagenous byproducts as a natural gas source, however how would it be stored when not in use? At abient temperature and pressure, it takes up a large amount of volume and is a major explosion hazard. While a good alternative to wood cooking everything, unless contained under pressure, I don't see a safe way for it to be stored. 4)Growing underground food was not originally part of the plan, but I will confess that it is a viable alternative to foraging, However, due to the needs of certain plants, a stable, grown food supply is unlikely, and is also going to be lacking in both nutritional and flavorful varieties. Because of this, I believe that possible planting outside (Yes OUTSIDE!) the colony in groves either a short distance away from the entrance or by a satellite entrance can allow it to receive adequate sunlight + irrigation. Post reply 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
LLukeL	16. RE: Did I miss anything in writing the article? Feb 3 2010, 3:12 PM EST \| Post edited: Feb 3 2010, 3:12 PM EST Continuing my post (Bloody Character Limit): 5) The largest problem I had when writing my article is the lack of a pressurized water system. I could not, save for an Archimedian Screw, figure out a way to draw up or pressurise water from a running water source. I have considered attempting to use wind towers in conjunction with qanats, but due to unpredictable aquifer depths, having an incidentally ideal spot for a qanat and a wind tower is highly unlikely, if there are any fluid dynamic principles or other low-tech ways to pressurize or lift water above the water table, please let me know. My main source of frustration in this matter is for plumbing: If I build a loo that can flush straight into the stream via gravity through a shaft dug out the side of the complex below the water table, that's fantastic, but putting it below the river level to allow a gravity-fed tank refill system would result in massive flooding of the complex. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
PapiSantos	17. RE: Did I miss anything in writing the article? Feb 3 2010, 9:18 PM EST \| Post edited: Feb 3 2010, 9:18 PM EST "2) How much compost would you need? A LOT! I know that composting is an exothermic chemical reaction and can create tremendous amounts of heat, but raising the temperature of several gallons of water per minute from approx 15C to 24C still requires quite a bit of energy, and to produce that energy would still require a massive space for an equally massive stinking hulk. As in the article, the idea to concealment is sensory concealment, If someone (or worse yet, a zed) above ground smells something, but sees nothing, suspicion goes on the rise. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composting#Compost_Odor" 2) Lets assume the frencman jean pain was right that 15 tonnes of compost fit in an space 3mx3mx4.5m and has enough heat power to warm a 92 square metre home for a year. Thats the size of a modest study/bedroom (amazingly 40500 litres!) Is that really that difficult when you are talking about the other stuff?? The average temperature in the compost heap is 60 degrees celcius. After the hypertheical Z-day the smell of decay will be pretty much everywhere. Sewers will clog up, produce will lay undistributed in warehouses and stores etc etc. If you have visited a developing nation major city you will be familiar with the ' stench' . Also the idea is to have it sealed airtight so you so you can havest the gas! Post reply Do you find this valuable?
PapiSantos	18. RE: Did I miss anything in writing the article? Feb 3 2010, 9:37 PM EST \| Post edited: Feb 3 2010, 9:37 PM EST "3) I love the idea of using the methagenous byproducts as a natural gas source, however how would it be stored when not in use? At abient temperature and pressure, it takes up a large amount of volume and is a major explosion hazard. While a good alternative to wood cooking everything, unless contained under pressure, I don't see a safe way for it to be stored. " 3) Jean paul stored his methane in 24 truck tyre inner tubes. Methane unlike petrol/gasoline requires a very narrow air ratio to be combustable. You need ' lean' mixtures for it to burn. If you sucessfully built the room mentioned above you would probably need to allow another room or storage method (or make a higher roof) The initial setup would require you to let it build up a small amount of pressure than ' bleed it off' to rid the methane/air mix (eg you have one square metre storage, you bleed of 3 square metres over the week... its would be only methane now) Overtime if you had trouble using all the gas (highly doubtfull running a small 500cc+ 4 stroke generator and a gas pilot light 24/7) then a small ' check' valve would bleed of the pressure. A simple small pipe running into the bottom of a water filled drum will do this. Unlike what you see in video games and movies you can fire a round into a full propane tank and it will not explode. ( slim chance it MAY catch fire when it vents out the pressurized gas, ias opposed to definately will) FOOTNOTE: straight Wood cooking underground is a bad idea, its one of the major causes of respistory problems in african nations, woodgas is a much safer method Post reply Do you find this valuable?
PapiSantos	19. RE: Did I miss anything in writing the article? Feb 3 2010, 9:50 PM EST \| Post edited: Feb 3 2010, 9:50 PM EST I am not saying a compost heap is the solution. Its a solution. Everyones locations and circumstances will be different. Here in sydney where i live atm solar is verymuch a fad. You could loot enough panels from homes, parking metres and street signs to power a small colony. My other home in rio? Not a change but i am confident the compost setup could be made from rudimentary materials... and a large source of vegetation for fuel :D All in all in either scenario i wouldn't be putting all my eggs in one basket, and build 3 or 4 types of energy sources. (eg Wood gas, methane, wind, solar, ethanol etc etc) Thing is you have to be realistic about the difference between fuel source and energy source. I see a fuel source as being something that works in a mobility sense, Propane BBQ tanks, petrol and ethanol is a good example. Easily transferable and useable, something for vehicles and mobile machinary. Wood gas or methane is more of an energy source, it needs a static location so you can use scale to your avantage for fuel generation. (I actually a have book with pictures of methane powered vehicles used during WWII. They have large canvas baloons filled with gas on their roof!) Post reply Do you find this valuable?

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Location: Subterranean Living

Discussion: Did I miss anything in writing the article?

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