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Discussion: Guns for self-defense

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noobcrusher14	Guns for self-defense Feb 13 2010, 6:59 PM EST I was wondering, what makes good guns [such as the AK-47/74, the AR-15, the M14 rifle, the M1 Garand/Carbine, and the M1903 Springfield [among many others]], so good? What makes them so good at being able to defend oneself from invaders that dozens of countries around the world would adopt them as weapons? What makes them so good in a firefight? Is it range? Rate of Fire? Caliber? Please tell me what you think are the defining factors which make guns such as the ones which I listed earlier so good? What makes a "good" assault rifle [such as the AK or the AR], and what makes a "bad" assault rifle [such as the M16A1]? Oh, and also, could anyone please give me the maximum range of a .408 CheyTac match-grade bolt-action rifle with a 35 inch free-floating barrel [a bit longer than the Lebel rifle], and other match grade features [as well as a GPS computer system [like the CheyTac Intervention computer system [look up future weapons-CheyTac Intervention on You Tube, and you'll see what I meen]] which compensates for windage, bullet drop, and even earth rotation] [and assume that the bullets are hand-loaded and perfectly weighted, and are using whichever powder gives it the longest range], with an almost perfect scope, and with an excellent shooter behind it? For maximum range, please give the range at which someone could shoot to the center mass [I'm using this info for anti-raider defense]. I've heard that the Lebel has a maximum range of 4,500 meters+ ! So, if you lengthened the barrel [thereby giving the rifle a longer range], and used a more accurate bullet [the .408 CheyTac is the most accurate bullet ever made], how far could THAT gun shoot to the center mass with an excellent scope and an EXPERT shooter behind it? How far could the same exact gun shoot with the same expert shooter and the same almost perfect scope using .22LR bullets [since the .22LR is lighter and therefore has a flatter tragectory]? Post reply 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you? Keyword tags: None
MajorDamage	1. RE: Guns for self-defense Feb 13 2010, 7:16 PM EST I'll take a stab at the first parts of the 15 part question, paragraph one: those particular weapons are modern battle rifles meant to take on multiple opponents accurately. That is the difference between military arms and 'sporting' arms. The 1903 Springfield, while a bolt action, was during it's time the standard. 5 rounds of 30-06 is not shabby and it's accuracy is still valid. The M1 Garand and M1 Carbine are both excellent weapons for battle both during their time and today in certain applications. Power (M1 G) and firepower (M1 Car) being second only to speed of reloading. M14 was an improvement over the Garand. Increasing ammo capacity and accuracy. Also, this 'family' of M1 G, Carbine and M14 all have actions that resist stopages and jams under the worst battle conditions. 'Sporting' arms are shot significantly less often and require more care. I don't know anything about the .408 thing Post reply 3 out of 3 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
possumblaster	2. RE: Guns for self-defense Feb 13 2010, 9:32 PM EST \| Post edited: Feb 13 2010, 9:34 PM EST "How far could the same exact gun shoot with the same expert shooter and the same almost perfect scope using .22LR bullets [since the .22LR is lighter and therefore has a flatter tragectory]?" URRRRRCCCHHHHH!!! (screeching brakes sound) Wait a second wait a second. I don't know jack about the .408 cheytac first of all. HOWEVER, the .22LR does NOT have a flat trajectory. After 100 yards it drops like a ROCK. There is WAY more to trajectory than the weight of the bullet. Try the ballistic coefficient, the weight, length, width of bullet, powder type, etc. Now, range. Longer barrels give the bullet more velocity, TO A POINT. So yes, an AR15 with a 24" barrel WILL shoot a bullet faster than a 16" barrel. HOWEVER, once you go past a certain length for any caliber there will be no benefits. Depending on the burn rate of the powder, once the powder has finished expanding after detonation, then any more barrel will not do a bit of good because there is nothing left to propel the bullet. That is why pistols use really fast burning powder, and rifles use medium/slow burning powder. To make use of the entire barrel. For conversations sake, let's say you have an AR15 with a 24" barrel, and an AR15 with a 6 foot long barrel (bear with me.) The AR with a 6 foot long barrel will not have any more noticeable velocity gains because most of the powder is already burnt off at the 24" mark. Make sense? I've never heard of any 4,500 meter shot, you are talking M1 Abrams 120mm main gun range right there. Given you are skilled and armed with some sort of 30 caliber magnum rifle (300 win mag, 30-06, etc.) then you should be able to hit a man sized target at 1,000 meters. Anything past that and you would need some serious training. And if the M16 was a "bad" assault rifle, then why has it been issued currently, and for the last 30+ years? Post reply 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
possumblaster	3. RE: Guns for self-defense Feb 13 2010, 9:36 PM EST \| Post edited: Feb 13 2010, 10:02 PM EST continued- For your first paragraph worth of questions, check out the thread in the Weapons and Gear section of the site. It's somewhere at the top and covers what constitutes a perfect assault rifle according to the members of this site. Here's the link in fact: http://www.zombiesurvivalwiki.com/thread/3664921/Criteria+for+the+perfect+weapon+for+you. On a final note, Future Weapons is really starting to piss me off. All I hear about is Dragon Skin, 6.8 SPC, and whatever the hell .408 cheytac is. Just because it was on future weapons doesn't necessarily mean that it is GOOD, or that ANYONE of importance uses it. Yeah they have some decent stuff on the show, but don't take mr. baldy so literal when he says that "this" is the best thing ever made. I'll tell you what. I'll play mr. future weapons guy, and this will be the most legitimate show yet. . "In today's episode, we're going to talk about the weapon that the military will be using 20 years from now! It's called the M4." Post reply 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
Freelancer47	4. RE: Guns for self-defense Feb 13 2010, 9:45 PM EST Nice reply folks! I gotta say for me I'm sticking with "Elysia". See my profile for pics. All in all, I would have to say that you would need to find out for yourself what exactly is the 'Best' for you. I like "Elysia". She's durable, has a common caliber, is 'Pimpable', etc. Some people are Die Hard fans of 'Battle Rifles' (ME!!!!!), some prefer their Grandpa's old Lever action. Experience & Practice are the only true ways to find out. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
herrteufelhund	5. RE: Guns for self-defense Feb 14 2010, 8:41 AM EST In addition to everyone else I'd also like to add a little something. Become a student of your craft. If this is something you are into really into then do some research. The library and internet are great. Depending on where you are maybe museums. I'm not an expert but I do a lot of homework and talk to a lot guys I know to see what they are using and why, but before I do I research my topic so I know the right questions to ask. Instead of a broad question such why is X, Y, &Z the best whatever see why an body of people choose that weapon or piece of gear. A response to changing tactics? Maybe the environment in which they were operating in? Then research what they changed to and why did they need to change. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
SasquatchJim	6. RE: Guns for self-defense Feb 14 2010, 9:10 AM EST "continued- For your first paragraph worth of questions, check out the thread in the Weapons and Gear section of the site. It's somewhere at the top and covers what constitutes a perfect assault rifle according to the members of this site. Here's the link in fact: http://www.zombiesurvivalwiki.com/thread/3664921/Criteria+for+the+perfect+weapon+for+you. On a final note, Future Weapons is really starting to piss me off. All I hear about is Dragon Skin, 6.8 SPC, and whatever the hell .408 cheytac is. Just because it was on future weapons doesn't necessarily mean that it is GOOD, or that ANYONE of importance uses it. Yeah they have some decent stuff on the show, but don't take mr. baldy so literal when he says that "this" is the best thing ever made. I'll tell you what. I'll play mr. future weapons guy, and this will be the most legitimate show yet. . "In today's episode, we're going to talk about the weapon that the military will be using 20 years from now! It's called the M4."" You can also blame Shooter and Modern Warfare 2 for the .408. While it does currently have the record of long-range shooting, it by no means in the best thing ever made. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
John_234	7. RE: Guns for self-defense (total misnormer) Feb 14 2010, 1:51 PM EST All of the weapons you listed were plainly reliable, to put everything in perspective. The 1903 was an ordinary bolt action rifle at the turn of the century, copied from the German Mauser action. If the US had to pay royalties for stealing the design anyway, they're more than likely going to stick with the rifle for a bit. The Garand gave the US a huge edge in combat as their opponents (and allies) mainly used bolt action rifles loaded with stripper clips. The M1 Carbine was the earliest iteration of the PDW concept (such as the later P90, arm the cooks and drivers), with the only intention of having more power than a pistol but was so handy it ended up being used by ordinary infantry. The M14 was an attempt to modernize the Garand, until some genius decided to make it full-automatic. While by no means a bad rifle, it was cumbersome design that was heavier than it needed to be. On top of that, they tried to replace the Grease Gun, BAR, Garand and Thompson with it, (Joint service...sound familiar?) going so far to create squad auto variants.They made the M1 carbine into the select fire M2 as well, but it didn't require many serious changes. The M14's short service life was attributed to the quick adoption of the M16 rifle, falling into the role of a designated marksman's rifle. Which, it works pretty damned well in. Wait... what makes a "good" weapon like the AR-15, but a "bad" weapon like the M16A1? Isn't that a bit of a contradiction in itself? The current issue variants, M16A4, M4, M4A1, are internally identical to the M16 and M16A1. The main differences are furniture; slightly different front sight shape, a fixed carry handle with non adjustable sights on the M16A1, the famous triangular foregrip, and a slightly shorter stock with a rubber butt pad. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
John_234	8. RE: Guns for self-defense (total misnormer) Feb 14 2010, 2:14 PM EST Max Brooks gives the design too much flak. The problems with the M16A1 were from the misguided belief that it was totally self cleaning, and allegedly due to the powder mix of the ammo. After such problems were rectified? They called it the "Sweet Sixteen" and the "Plastic Fantastic" for it's light weight and accuracy. The AK47, though known mostly for it's brutal reliability, is such a common design simply because it was the premier cold war product of the USSR. When Mikhail Kalashnikov designed the AK47, he took concepts from John Moses Browning and John Cantius Garand and blended them in a design that could be made almost entirely from stampings. Ironically, Russia made him change it into a machined design (AK-47)... then change it back after they realized how expensive it was, resulting in the AKM. When the Soviets were essentially flinging AKs at people, and the weapons proved themselves reliable, it's hard to imagine why the weapon wouldn't become so widespread. If weight of cartridge was the only concern, wouldn't the 668 Grain .50 Browning Machine Gun rounds slide down the barrel and drift to the floor, acme style? Not really, mainly due to the 200 or so grains of propellant sitting behind that massive round. A lighter round may have a flatter trajectory when coupled with extreme velocity. Then again, a heavier bullet remains more stable. There's no simple formula for range and trajectory. Sure, you could custom build ammunition and rifle to engage at 10,000 meters on a whim, with computerized targeting and low yield nuclear bullets, but... at that point, it'd be easier to call in a laser guided bomb or the nearest tank, because you'd need to be riding on government funding to build that sort of weapon. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
John_234	9. RE: Guns for self-defense (total misnormer) Feb 14 2010, 2:20 PM EST It's the same reason we use 9mm or .45 handguns when we could issue cut down AR pistols or compact shotguns; a pistol is a pistol. Just like a Cheytac, or any other bullet firing rifle isn't a long range bomber. "What we really need, Togusa, is not sharpshooting skills, so much as the ability to get close enough to make sure the enemy can be killed. If you want to play at long-range sniping, you can always go shoot an elephant at 500 miles with a miniature cruise missile..." Post reply Do you find this valuable?

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