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Discussion: The Police, and whatchu gonna do?Reported This is a featured thread

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Happyman0
Happyman0
The Police, and whatchu gonna do?
Aug 26 2010, 1:59 AM EDT | Post edited: Aug 26 2010, 1:59 AM EDT
I just watched a Frontline about the police shooting unarmed citizens during hurricane Katrina. Considering the majority of us are going to be armed citizens trying to leave an active quarantine area this might be a problem. Have you considered being shot by police officers in your Z-day plan? Have you considered a police presence at all? How do you plan to deal with a police presence?

Here's Frontline
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/law-disorder/
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demsmine
demsmine
1. RE: The Police, and whatchu gonna do?
Aug 26 2010, 2:17 AM EDT | Post edited: Aug 26 2010, 2:17 AM EDT
That's a rough question. And although I'd never advocate attacking law enforcement in anyway, I can see how in some fantastical scenarios it could be prudent. Do you find this valuable?    
DevilNuts
DevilNuts
2. RE: The Police, and whatchu gonna do?
Aug 26 2010, 2:21 AM EDT | Post edited: Aug 26 2010, 2:21 AM EDT
Dealing with the police is easy:

Keep your hands in plain sight, and avoid making sudden movements. Being polite helps.
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Sullivan714
Sullivan714
3. RE: The Police, and whatchu gonna do?
Aug 26 2010, 2:38 AM EDT | Post edited: Aug 26 2010, 2:38 AM EDT
Avoid them at all costs. Don't stand out and stay low profile. If you do happen to run into them be as nice and cooperative as possible. Unless you have a gut feeling that your life is at risk. Do you find this valuable?    
toxic_shock
toxic_shock
4. RE: The Police, and whatchu gonna do?
Aug 26 2010, 2:39 AM EDT | Post edited: Aug 26 2010, 2:39 AM EDT
"Avoid them at all costs. Don't stand out and stay low profile. If you do happen to run into them be as nice and cooperative as possible. Unless you have a gut feeling that your life is at risk. "
Agree 100%. I'll leave it at that.
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Carnack
Carnack
5. RE: The Police, and whatchu gonna do?
Aug 26 2010, 2:52 AM EDT | Post edited: Aug 26 2010, 2:52 AM EDT
"Dealing with the police is easy:

Keep your hands in plain sight, and avoid making sudden movements. Being polite helps. "
Or just steer the hell clear.

I want to avoid killing working stiffs if possible.

(cops are human and when they snap they become people with a badge and a weapon)
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DevilNuts
DevilNuts
6. RE: The Police, and whatchu gonna do?
Aug 26 2010, 3:05 AM EDT | Post edited: Aug 26 2010, 3:05 AM EDT
"(cops are human and when they snap they become people with a badge and a weapon)"
They are already people with a badge and a weapon. But what are you basing your opinion on?

If there is *anyone* in the world whos training allows him to withstand the stress of a weird situation, it could be a police officer. The difference between a cop and an ordinary armed person is hundreds of hours of realistic shoot/no-shoot training, stress inoculation training, ethics indoctrination, and physical conditioning.

When comparing the two, I would say that an ordinary person would snap much, much sooner than a cop.
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Carnack
Carnack
7. RE: The Police, and whatchu gonna do?
Aug 26 2010, 3:13 AM EDT | Post edited: Aug 26 2010, 3:19 AM EDT
"They are already people with a badge and a weapon. But what are you basing your opinion on?

If there is *anyone* in the world whos training allows him to withstand the stress of a weird situation, it could be a police officer. The difference between a cop and an ordinary armed person is hundreds of hours of realistic shoot/no-shoot training, stress inoculation training, ethics indoctrination, and physical conditioning.

When comparing the two, I would say that an ordinary person would snap much, much sooner than a cop.
"
A cop has authority. A person doesn't.

Everyone has a limit. Everyone.

Point being that if someone (badge or not) is acting erratic and irrational badge or no badge he gets stopped.
A badge does not immunize someone from stupidity.

I have this mindset so I will steer clear.
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DevilNuts
DevilNuts
8. RE: The Police, and whatchu gonna do?
Aug 26 2010, 3:18 AM EDT | Post edited: Aug 26 2010, 3:18 AM EDT
Fair enough. Do you find this valuable?    
Quickrace89
Quickrace89
9. RE: The Police, and whatchu gonna do?
Aug 26 2010, 3:19 AM EDT | Post edited: Aug 26 2010, 3:19 AM EDT
"They are already people with a badge and a weapon. But what are you basing your opinion on?

If there is *anyone* in the world whos training allows him to withstand the stress of a weird situation, it could be a police officer. The difference between a cop and an ordinary armed person is hundreds of hours of realistic shoot/no-shoot training, stress inoculation training, ethics indoctrination, and physical conditioning.

When comparing the two, I would say that an ordinary person would snap much, much sooner than a cop.
"
Well, I think the lack of protocol would also have to be factored in, moreso if there have been no official instructions issued by the government (which, when the whole world is infected within 24 hours as in some scenarios, is quite plausible).

When there is no training or protocol to cover what decision a police officer should make (as they don't usually train police to deal with zombie epidemics where I come from), his decisions will be based a lot more on what he personally believes and a hell of a lot less on legal protocol, which makes them a lot less predictable and a lot more like other survivors you're going to meet (except with far better stress handling abilities, certainly).

I'm not saying police are mindless automatons of the law, I'm just saying that their training in protocol helps them to make the right decision faster.

In a Level IV, Global SHTF scenario, cops will be out there trying to survive like the rest of us. And once they see a few zombies, ensuring strict adherence to the law will probably not be their first priority. Perhaps adherence to the loosely defined moral law we mostly all share, but not the paper one in the Capitol.

Whether this makes them easier or more difficult to deal with then "ordinary" crazed looters and survivors, I don't know for sure - a cool, calm operator can be a lot more dangerous.
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Carnack
Carnack
10. RE: The Police, and whatchu gonna do?
Aug 26 2010, 3:22 AM EDT | Post edited: Aug 26 2010, 3:22 AM EDT
"Well, I think the lack of protocol would also have to be factored in, moreso if there have been no official instructions issued by the government (which, when the whole world is infected within 24 hours as in some scenarios, is quite plausible). "
Exactly. In New Orleans after Katrina you had cops looting stores same as the other guys.

I would say that at that point they weren't acting like cops but criminals.
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Quickrace89
Quickrace89
11. RE: The Police, and whatchu gonna do?
Aug 26 2010, 3:27 AM EDT | Post edited: Aug 26 2010, 3:27 AM EDT
"Exactly. In New Orleans after Katrina you had cops looting stores same as the other guys.

I would say that at that point they weren't acting like cops but criminals."
That would suck. :|

I was thinking more of the justice-driven town-sheriff who's there to enforce justice as well as law (and isn't afraid to forego the latter for the former).
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DevilNuts
DevilNuts
12. RE: The Police, and whatchu gonna do?
Aug 26 2010, 3:35 AM EDT | Post edited: Aug 26 2010, 3:36 AM EDT
"
When there is no training or protocol to cover what decision a police officer should make (as they don't usually train police to deal with zombie epidemics where I come from), his decisions will be based a lot more on what he personally believes and a hell of a lot less on legal protocol, which makes them a lot less predictable and a lot more like other survivors you're going to meet (except with far better stress handling abilities, certainly)."
You guys are mistaking "snapping" for something else. Greed can get the best of anyone.

All I was arguing was that cops are better equipped through conditioning to retain their composure in stressful life-or-death situations.

The kind of training I am referring to is not about decision making: it is operant conditioning to provide an aotumatic response when the front-brain is too scared to react appropriately (AKA fight-or-flight response) and the midbrain takes over.

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Happyman0
Happyman0
13. RE: The Police, and whatchu gonna do?
Aug 26 2010, 3:40 AM EDT | Post edited: Aug 26 2010, 3:40 AM EDT
I don't think you watched my feature presentation :( Do you find this valuable?    
DevilNuts
DevilNuts
14. RE: The Police, and whatchu gonna do?
Aug 26 2010, 3:43 AM EDT | Post edited: Aug 26 2010, 3:43 AM EDT
I didn't; I was responding to carnack.

I am watching burn notice, learning to become a better spy.
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2WheeledSpeed
2WheeledSpeed
15. RE: The Police, and whatchu gonna do?
Aug 26 2010, 3:58 AM EDT | Post edited: Aug 26 2010, 3:58 AM EDT
They weren't just shooting innocents during Katrinia, they were illegally seizing guns left and right from law abiding citizens.

There was a video put together by the NRA I believe, one guy who had his guns seized said when he asked for a receipt from the cops they said "If we gave everyone a receipt we'd be out here all day doing paperwork".

Another guy said the cops just literally smashed his guns on the pavement in front of him.

Avoid the cops during any disaster like the plague.
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DevilNuts
DevilNuts
16. RE: The Police, and whatchu gonna do?
Aug 26 2010, 4:23 AM EDT | Post edited: Aug 26 2010, 4:23 AM EDT
Meh. I don't have guns. I don't really walk around with anything of value, and I don't break the law.

I honestly have no reason to be afraid of the police. I am not a threat to them.
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Carnack
Carnack
17. RE: The Police, and whatchu gonna do?
Aug 26 2010, 4:54 AM EDT | Post edited: Aug 26 2010, 4:54 AM EDT
"You guys are mistaking "snapping" for something else. Greed can get the best of anyone.

All I was arguing was that cops are better equipped through conditioning to retain their composure in stressful life-or-death situations.

The kind of training I am referring to is not about decision making: it is operant conditioning to provide an aotumatic response when the front-brain is too scared to react appropriately (AKA fight-or-flight response) and the midbrain takes over.

"
There are some things the brain can't prep for.

There are limits to what someone can tolerate. Does training help that? Of course...but it just places the bar higher. It doesn't eliminate it.





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DevilNuts
DevilNuts
18. RE: The Police, and whatchu gonna do?
Aug 26 2010, 6:33 AM EDT | Post edited: Aug 26 2010, 6:33 AM EDT
The brain can prep for just about anything if it wants to. But I do get your point and it is valid.

The threshold is still there, and this is something leaders need to take into account at all levels.
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SasquatchJim
SasquatchJim
19. RE: The Police, and whatchu gonna do?
Aug 26 2010, 8:25 AM EDT | Post edited: Aug 26 2010, 8:25 AM EDT
"
I am watching burn notice, learning to become a better spy. "
Woot, good show.

I agree what y'all are saying; everyone has their limits. That's why I don't believe the people that say they'd shoot infected family members without a second thought.

As for cops, though. I'm not worried. I live so far out that we see a cop car maybe once every few months.
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