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White76Knight |
Entrance
Feb 2 2011, 11:34 AM EST
Hey Rocket.You wrote: "The entrance is not a defensive structure – quite the opposite, it may be considered a weak point." This is not entirely the case. In fact, precisely because it would otherwise be a weak point, the entrance was often the most heavily defended point on the entire wall. It was often a many layered defense, consisting of towers, drawbridges, gates, a portcullis or two. Here, for example, is the gatehouse that I intend to use in my compound. http://image.wetpaint.com/image/1/bOlvhX3l9ygmCwo191jHQg54285 This gatehouse is loosely based on one seen in an actual surviving medieval castle (I think I modeled it off of Bodiam in Sussex,if I remember correctly), although I have, of course made a few modifications. In any case, an attacker would have to breech multiple lines of resistance. 1) The "Machine Gun Nests" just outside the drawbridge. The defenders stationed here need not have actual machine guns of course, but they are more of a security checkpoint before people approach the main gate. 2) the drawbridge over the trench. This, as you said, can be retracted in the event of attack, denying the attackers a place to stand while they attack the gates. 3) The gates themselves. These timber gates should be as massive as you can make them, while still allowing them to be manhandled into place with whatever equipment and manpower you have available to you. The gates should be heavy enough to at least resist, if not outright stop, a vehicle of standard size attempting to crash into it. The gate can be further reinforced to this end by a massive timber beam (or length of heavy steel pipe, or whatever) that can be dropped across the back of the door like a giant deadbolt, and by like beams that can be set at an angle from the back of the gates to blocks of concrete in the ground behind the gates. (Cont'd) Do you find this valuable? |
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White76Knight |
1. RE: Entrance
Feb 2 2011, 11:59 AM EST
Being made of wood, if these gates can be treated with something that will make them fire resistant, that will be good, as one traditional means of attacking the gates of a castle was to burn them down, though defenders stationed on the wall can throw buckets of water down over the gates to prevent and extinguish fires. If you have, or can get, enough steel plate to cover even the lower part of the gates (to the height of a man) this will make them both fire resistant and give cover from small arms fire to any defenders standing behind the gate. A smaller, man-sized door can be built either into or next to the main gate so that people can come and go without having to open the main gate so that vehicles could pass. This small door would have to be just as strong and well reinforced as the gate itself, of course, else it would be a weak point. 4) While attackers are trying to overcome the drawbridge and gates, they are under fire from defenders stationed on the wall above and in the towers flanking the gate (remember your archer slits and machicolations, nowhere are machicolations more important than over the gate). 5) Inside the gates are two heavy portcullises. These are the heavy iron grates that you see over the archway in this picture: http://image.wetpaint.com/image/1/h6xxLEqCAwreB8wIYPAkqw52377 Now these grates used to be made of wrought iron, all in a single piece, but to simplify construction and ease of use, these days they could be made of welded steel pipes and bars, and jointed to roll up into a track over the gates like a modern garage door on steroids. (cont'd again) Do you find this valuable? |
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White76Knight |
2. RE: Entrance
Feb 2 2011, 12:15 PM EST
Now here's where the defenders get crafty. The inner portcullis is closed during an attack, but the outer one, the one immediately behind the gates, is left open. If attackers breech the gates they will charge into the alley between the towers and be stopped by the inner portcullis, at which time the outer portcullis can be closed behind them, trapping them in the alley. Remember your archer slits and machicolations? You have them in this alley too, and the foolish attackers are now trapped in a slaughterhouse. Keep your archer slits above ground level to make it difficult for attackers to shoot back, and cover them with chain link shutters or the like to prevent attackers tossing in molotov's while you are shooting them. If your attackers are zeds, of course, it is unlikely that they will even get this far, but if they did they wouldn't be bothered by the second portcullis being lowered behind them as Zeds wouldn't retreat anyway, so in this case just leave the outer portcullis down as another barricade. LOL - Wow, I really wrote a book here, didn't I? Do you find this valuable? |
Sharpie41 |
3. RE: Entrance
Feb 2 2011, 1:00 PM EST
Structurally I think it would be weaker, but you are right, because of this it would be more heavily defended
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White76Knight |
4. RE: Entrance
Feb 2 2011, 4:57 PM EST
"Structurally I think it would be weaker, but you are right, because of this it would be more heavily defended "Exactly. No mater how well constructed it is, of course a timber gate is gonna be weaker than a stone wall that's ten or fifteen feet thick (or more in some castles). In a lot of cases we modern folks like to think that we are intellectually superior to our medieval ancestors. So sure are we in this belief that we sometimes overlook that fact that our ancestors weren't idiots either. For us, designing a fortress, or armor, or medieval style weapons, or learning anything about food preservation without refrigeration, or whatever is a process of reinventing the wheel. We think that we have to apply modern ingenuity to the issue if we are to have any hope of succeeding. For them, all of these things were a matter of day to day living, skills so common that just about anyone could do them. They had to get it right or die. After the SHTF, we too may have to get it right or die but, fortunately for us, they've already done all the hard work so we just have to learn from their example. Do you find this valuable? |
Rocketman52 |
5. RE: Entrance
Feb 2 2011, 7:24 PM EST
*Rocketman's head collapses to the table.*Geez, WK... Well, first off, you have a LOT of good material here. I never put much thought into the entrance to a for before earlier today, and even then I had more important things to do. Kudos, for the material. On that note, however, the page isn't even half done yet! >.< Haha patience. :P And when I said it was a weak point, Sharpie explained it. It's not a thick wall, or anything. It cant be to allow passage, ya know? So.... I'd like to have multiple methods for entrances. However, what is better than a drawbridge?.... Hah. I'm curious, why do you have outposts outside the fortress in your drawing? Do you find this valuable? |
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Sharpie41 |
6. RE: Entrance
Feb 2 2011, 7:35 PM EST
"Exactly. No mater how well constructed it is, of course a timber gate is gonna be weaker than a stone wall that's ten or fifteen feet thick (or more in some castles).Hey what type of book would you suggest for fortifications, as in what empire (Roman Empire, Greek etc) Do you find this valuable? |
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White76Knight |
7. RE: Entrance
Feb 2 2011, 9:32 PM EST
"Hey what type of book would you suggest for fortifications, as in what empire (Roman Empire, Greek etc)"Anything covering 14-17th century European. The earlier stuff gives you what you need to repel melee based invaders (ie - Zeds), while most of the later stuff (after the advent of gunpowder, cannons and muzzleloaders) works just as well now to repel invaders who will shoot at you as it did then. Do you find this valuable? |
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White76Knight |
8. RE: Entrance
Feb 2 2011, 9:49 PM EST
| Post edited: Feb 2 2011, 9:51 PM EST
"I'm curious, why do you have outposts outside the fortress in your drawing?"LOL - just throwin some extra info your way buddy. Hope it helps when you get to that part of it. As for the outposts outside the fortress, do you mean the Machinegun nests? As I said, these serve mainly as a security checkpoint before people approach the gates. Something the size of this to keep the rain off: http://lh3.ggpht.com/_hX39mp6pnpo/SLcNay3kN6I/AAAAAAAABU0/nln9F7gmvIo/IMG_0431.jpg With a low horseshoe shaped wall (like 3-4 ft high, made of concrete or rammed earth or even just sandbags) across the front and sides to hide behind if shooting were required. They could handle small threats, like one or two zeds that got through the outer fences or whatever, but in the event of a serious attack, these nests would be abandoned and the men stationed in them would haul ass across the drawbridge to take up position inside the walls. For what its worth, though, these are not really "outside the fort" per se. That pic is just a cut-out of one small part of my compound. Again going with the medieval approach, the idea is concentric circles of defense. The fort is backed up against a cliff or a wide river so that it can't easily be attacked from that side. Before attackers even get to the fort, though, there are two lines of fences and ditches and a whole lot of open ground on the other three sides, so those in the machinegun nests would have a place of cover to fire from while attackers negotiated those obstacles first. Do you find this valuable? |
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Rocketman52 |
9. RE: Entrance
Feb 2 2011, 10:43 PM EST
Ok, so the outposts (calling them machine guns nests makes me uncomfortable, heh) are outside of the keep, but still inside the outer perimeter. Cool.On that note, what do you think about an outermost perimeter of chain link fencing? In my own designs, I'd like to incorporate an outermost perimeter of it. The idea being that, although it is not the strongest, you could easily stab through it, with a small, sharp-tipped melee weapon, like a makeshift spear. This would keep their numbers from growing to a point where they can push it over or damage it. Granted, the bodies would have to be cleaned frequently, but I would certainly prefer that to a pile of living zombies! My worries with it is towards the availability of it. I wouldn't want to state that "Oh, you can pick it up anywhere after the Apoc!" but I can't help but feel it's partially true. I need to search for the cost of it online, but that's secondary to some other projects at the moment. Do you find this valuable? |
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White76Knight |
10. RE: Entrance
Feb 3 2011, 9:59 AM EST
"On that note, what do you think about an outermost perimeter of chain link fencing?A chain link fence was my first thought too, but then as you did, I questioned the likely expense before the SHTF or the availability after. I figure a wooden stockade fence would do the job just as well. You'll probably be clearing a lot of trees to make room for your compound and surrounding open areas anyway. Try to select trees for the fence that are as close as possible to the diameter that you want to minimize the need for a sawmill. Besides, even the bigger trees can be ripped with a chainsaw if you have to, the finished product may not be as pretty, but a full sized sawmill isn't really needed. Anyway, when you're assembling the fence, space the logs so that they are far enough apart to shoot or stick a spear through, but not far enough apart for the Zeds to try to climb through. Should do the job just as well as chain link, but be a whole lot cheaper. That way you can do it sooner rather than wondering whether you'll have the time or materials later. Do you find this valuable? |
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White76Knight |
11. RE: Entrance
Feb 3 2011, 10:23 AM EST
"So.... I'd like to have multiple methods for entrances. However, what is better than a drawbridge?.... Hah."By the way, you don't really need multiple methods for entrance. What you need is multiple methods for exit. This may sound like a distinction without a difference, but what I mean is that you need to be able to get your people out in the event that your main gate is besieged from the outside or overrun entirely. I suggest things like concealed doors, hidden tunnels and stuff like that. I have a plan to include a Panic Room of sorts in the basement of my fort, a last stand defensive position that is structurally sound enough to protect the occupants from fire or collapse of the building just as much as from attack. In the even that an "Abandon Ship" is called for, this Panic Room will include an underground tunnel that opens somewhere well outside the wall, but visible from it so that defenders can look to see if the area around the exit is overrun before sending people through the tunnel. You wouldn't want to lead them to safety only to lead them into a walking wall of infected undead now, would you? If the occupants are cut off from the basement, and the panic room and tunnel are thus inaccessible, there will also be concealed doors that blend with the outside wall on the third floor. These doors will open to nothing but thin air, three stories above the ground (to deny attackers a weak point to try to gain access to the building) and they will be equipped with emergency rope ladders so that people can open the door, kick out the ladder, then climb down to safety. This will not be as secure, as it will not get them as far from the action as the tunnel, but it makes for a decent Plan B. Do you find this valuable? |
DevilNuts |
12. RE: Entrance
Feb 3 2011, 11:24 AM EST
Chain link is actually a pretty good solution for a lighter perimeter defense. It's strong enough to hold off zombies fairly well (or at the very least slow them down), and has the added advantage of being portable -- you can always roll it up and move it on short notice.
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BigLoki |
13. RE: Entrance
Feb 3 2011, 11:52 AM EST
The key to a good entrance in a nutshell (not trying to take away from WK's info, that's all good stuff) is design.What I mean is: ALL entrances are viewed as a weakpoint, and if you design it right, than you want this. If someone is seeking to gain entry to my place, I want my gate/entrance to be their first idea. Beats the hell out of wondering if they want to blow a hole somewhere along the perimeter. Make the entrance a choke point. For example, a large "gate" with a tapering entrance. I personally like the "cattle chutes" like when you're driving through a construction zone, and they use the cement barricades to funnel you into one lane, or the next lane. Same basic idea. Once past the actual entry point, using walls, or whatever you choose, "funnel" the entrance into a choke point. If done correctly it won't matter if there are 5 or 50 unauthorized entrants, you will only be dealing with 5 at a time. Just a thought. Do you find this valuable? |
P0LaND |
14. RE: Entrance
Feb 3 2011, 12:14 PM EST
I love the idea of the high walls around the tiny corridor where archers and such can really destroy the attackers. I finally found it, called a barbican. I remember watching a video in high school about these. They just seem like an instant fail to attackers.http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Castles_of_England/English_Castle_Design Do you find this valuable? |
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White76Knight |
15. RE: Entrance
Feb 3 2011, 12:23 PM EST
Barbican, yeah that's it, LOL. I knew how to describe it, but I was too lazy to look up the proper name. I like the idea of a tapering approach, but I don't think it would be feasible for the main gates as the narrow end would still have to be at least wide enough for vehicles to pass through. A smaller secondary wall and gate house between the parking lot and the inner compound might work though. Do you find this valuable? |
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BigLoki |
16. RE: Entrance
Feb 3 2011, 12:54 PM EST
"Barbican, yeah that's it, LOL. I knew how to describe it, but I was too lazy to look up the proper name.All depends on the design, but I see your point. Still a vehicle width is about 5 people wide, so the sentiment is the same. Just depends on what other ideas you are trying to implement. Do you find this valuable? |
DLOWTHEMAD |
17. RE: Entrance
Feb 3 2011, 1:13 PM EST
| Post edited: Feb 3 2011, 1:14 PM EST
The other thing to remember about the entrance: You fortify it to the extreme, they are gonna come at you from a different direction. You gotta keep a large kill zone, or terrain advantage around a fortification. Seriously, I'm gonna hit the longest stretch of uninterupted wall with everything I have. Historically, the door would be so fortified (since it's viewed as the weakpoint) that it wasn't even worth the time to assault. A long stretch of wall however is a pretty easy nut to crack w/ some artillery or a good ram. Even one several feet thick, many old castles with thick walls fell to more modern artillery after the advent of gunpowder. Several ways to prevent this: -Build on a hill top with only one approach -Wide kill zone around the walls, Leave stumps, large boulders and other hard to move debris intact to prevent approach by vehicle or seige engines. -Always keep a few guns turned out on the other walls, any attack could just be cover for a flank, preferably some kind of heavier artillery if you have it -Mine fields... If you have the know how, otherwise forget this one -Always have lots of extra building material on hand to shore up the walls, doors, or build as needed structures Do you find this valuable? |
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P0LaND |
18. RE: Entrance
Feb 3 2011, 2:30 PM EST
Trench? Preferably far away from the wall?
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DLOWTHEMAD |
19. RE: Entrance
Feb 3 2011, 2:46 PM EST
"Trench? Preferably far away from the wall?"Can be used, but it may just provide your enemies more advantage than it provides you. Trenches would often be dug by the besieging army to provide cover from archery or gunfire from the walls... Why make it easier for them. Do you find this valuable? |
