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Discussion: A thought concerning cows...

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White76Knight	A thought concerning cows... Mar 20 2011, 11:41 PM EDT Quoted from my own plan: "My reading has indicated that a single goat will provide all of the milk that my family of five could drink on a daily basis (with some to spare in fact). Two goats could do the same, with enough left over to process into butter, cheese and so forth. Goats may be better than cows (unless you have a larger number of survivors requiring a greater volume of milk, and maybe even then, it may be better just to have a greater number of goats) as goats can nourish themselves wholly on natural forage, without requiring the complex mixture of grain feeds that are needed by cows for top milk production, thereby requiring still more cropland. Even milking goats, which do need some grains, still require much less of it than even relatively small cows (2-4 lbs of grain, plus around 3-5 lbs of good quality hay daily for goats as compared to 10 lbs of grain and almost 50 lbs of hay for each dairy cow). Besides, if you have two goats and one of them gets sick and dies, you still have one goat. But, on the other hand, if you had one cow and IT got sick and died, you'd have bupkis. As a milking goat needs to be bred each season in order to continue producing milk, a few male goats should be retained for this purpose. Any resultant surplus of male offspring would be butchered for meat, as would all those older female goats whose milk or breeding production has declined." Just thought this might be something worth thinking about. Post reply 5 out of 5 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you? Keyword tags: None
Rocketman52	1. RE: A thought concerning cows... May 4 2011, 10:20 PM EDT \| Post edited: May 5 2011, 12:06 AM EDT Great, a thread on this! I had started looking into goats a few weeks ago, and talking about it in the IRC quite a bit. From what I understand, a goat requires a quarter of the pasture a single cow would. Theoretically, on good turf, you could maintain four goats in place of one cow. Not only this, but goats eat anything (relatively). No, they don't eat tin cans (as far as I know). But when you compare goats to horses or cows, they eat ANYTHING. They eat high grass, low grass, brush, jaggers, shrubs, and even trees. We have four horses, and they will eat only the low grass in the field. They will completely ignore one to four foot high grass, and pick through to eat only what's low. Goats, on the other hand, eat the brush, eat the high grass, then eat the low grass, and then eat the trees around the pasture. Very economical. Unfortunately, from what I hear, they are very hard to keep contained. Goats have a high percentage of Houdini's in their species. The only two effective methods of containment seem to be woven wire, preferably 6 foot high (REALLY expensive!), or a three to four strand electrified wire (and only works depending on the size of the goat.). EDIT: I've also read that some even use five to six strand electrified wire, sometimes with alternating live wires. It also seems to work really well, much better even than three or four strand. On that note, however, I believe that if a goat "imprints" or "herds" with another critter, be that people, horses, cows, etc, they will remain with that animal whether they are contained or not. So, say, for example, if i managed to get the goat to consider the four horses it's herd, it would never stray far form them. The horses would be contained, and therefore, so would the goat. Post reply 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
Rocketman52	2. RE: A thought concerning cows... May 4 2011, 10:27 PM EDT \| Post edited: May 5 2011, 12:07 AM EDT (^ Cont. ^) Using this strong herd instinct allows people to take their goats hiking, without any sort of leash. If they're the heard leader, the goats will follow. MNG showed me this forum, and I've done some reading and found it very cool, and very interesting: http://www.packgoatforum.com/ Housing, it seems, requires only a lean-to for rain. If you're milking them, then all you need is a simple wooden stock-style holder. Compare that to a cow, where you need big-ss holders to keep the big bstard in place. All that being said, I do not own goats - yet. My family has been looking at pygmy goats for a time. Pygmies make good pets, but not very useful otherwise. However, I've also been looking around and found some Obers and Sable/Ober crosses. Either of those should make great pack-goats, should I take that route. Either route the family ends up going, they're a hundred or less, so it's manageable. Goats, not only more effective and cheaper along the way, are a lot cheaper initially. Post reply 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
toxic_shock	3. RE: A thought concerning cows... May 4 2011, 10:57 PM EDT Wow, this is useful information! This needs to be made into a page so when this thread dies the knowledge doesn't. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
Rocketman52	4. RE: A thought concerning cows... May 4 2011, 11:46 PM EDT Thanks, TS. I hope to assemble a chicken page, and perhaps one for goats as well, once I gain some personal experience. Obviously, WK is rather informed on the subject. Some other stuff: I hear that they need de-wormed every once in a while, more importantly than dogs or horses or some such. However, you can grow herbal de-wormers to take care of that. I don't know anything about those, but that's just something else I'll look into. Also, you can feed them cornstalks as a roughage opposed to hay. Lol. Awesome. I also need to go to Tractor Supply. I'm gonna pick up a bunch of literature on whatever I can: goats, cattle, chickens, etc. Also, apparently, you must keep your billies away from the nannies when not breeding. The hormonal changes supposedly give the milk an off taste. If you own goats, it's not good to own just one. It's required that you keep at least two, as they're very social animals. However, I haven't heard whether you can use another species with the goat. I believe that, instead of another goat, if you were to, say, keep it with the horses, it would enjoy their company. ALSO: If you were to slaughter a cow, how much food would you have? More than you could consume in a couple days, and it would be very difficult to store it all. It would have to all be smoked or some such. However, if you slaughter a goat, you'll have enough for you're group. Probably for no more than a week. The usage of a goat for meat purposes is MUCH more economical than using cattle. Also, while a goat needs less land per goat than a cow, they are naturally programmed to wander many miles a day. So, while they wont eat as much, they still need room to walk and wander to truly thrive. Also, when the Houdini comes out in a goat, some owners simply harvest the goat for food. It seems that that single goat will allow the rest to escape. Post reply 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
TheRoamingGnome	5. RE: A thought concerning cows... May 5 2011, 12:49 AM EDT \| Post edited: May 5 2011, 12:51 AM EDT i have had goats and yes they are a pain in the butt to keep in. they where boar goats and when i say they where huge i mean they where HUGE my goats wieghed in at over 180 pounds. on the other hand they did not eat anything they ate goat meal and would not eat the tall grass..but would eat the leaves off tree's. we had them in a 5+ ft high fence with 5000V electric wire and it still wouldn't keep them in.they also started getting agressive, one time my aunt was feeding them and at the time she wieghed about 160 pounds(she has lost wieght) my goat put his horns in between her legs and flipped her over. if it where a small kid he would have really hurt the kid..i dont think you want crazy goats injuring you post Z-day. The last time they got out they got so bad they couldnt be moved i even hog tied thier legs and i was afraid it would injure them because they where determined not to get back in the fence that i had to get rid of them then and there. me and my goat got really close we had this game we would play where i would hold and open hand up in front of him like i was signaling stop and he would rise up and come down with his horns as if he was ramming and i would play the part of another goat ramming but with my hand he was obediant to me to a point almost like a dog...this makes me miss him :( Post reply Do you find this valuable?
whitefang10	6. RE: A thought concerning cows... May 5 2011, 5:08 AM EDT \| Post edited: May 5 2011, 5:08 AM EDT I've read to books on goat farming, yes goats can feed on almost anything. but if you don't feed them supplements they will not produce 3 litre of milk, a much smaller amount. Maybe if you great oats and lucerne and stored them over winter then maybe you could get the milk production up, but not to the high levels that you will get when farmed pre apoc. Also, you can't just keep one goat you will have to keep or borrow a male goat to breed them with to keep them producing meat. Another problem with goats is they are very susceptible to worms, therefore you must maintain there water source very clean. Thirdly they also will need trimming to keep their hoofs short enough. Sorry if some of that as been covered in the post. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
White76Knight	7. RE: A thought concerning cows... May 5 2011, 10:18 AM EDT "Thanks, TS. I hope to assemble a chicken page, and perhaps one for goats as well, once I gain some personal experience. Obviously, WK is rather informed on the subject." LOL - While I appreciate your confidence in my knowledge of the matter, Rocket, I must confess that my original post in this thread summed up the beginning and end of everything I know about raising goats. You have already posted far more information than I knew. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
Rocketman52	8. RE: A thought concerning cows... May 5 2011, 11:03 AM EDT Haha I had no numbers to put to grain and such before your post. And THAT is what makes this site so d*mn awesome - the ease of exchange of useful but uncommon information. Gnome brings up another point - most owners do not tolerate an attacking goat. If the goat attacks even once, many people chose to have it slaughtered on the spot. Although, I have to say, RG, pretending to headbutt it was probably not the best decision either... And yea, WF. Do you know of any of the herbal dewormers of which I spoke? Post reply Do you find this valuable?
DLOWTHEMAD	9. RE: A thought concerning cows... May 5 2011, 12:07 PM EDT One thing I notice that new livestock owners often miss is mineral supplements. Fenced in livestock is not able to wander and get all the minerals and nutrients they would normally look for out of instinct. Alot of farmers and ranchers use mineral or salt blocks to supplement forage diets. Available at the regular feed stores, you should get advice from an expert about which supplements your livestock needs. If you are trying to primarily feed your livestock with grazing, this is probably your best bet to ensure good nutrition and healthy lifespan. Post reply 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
White76Knight	10. RE: A thought concerning cows... May 5 2011, 1:44 PM EDT \| Post edited: May 5 2011, 1:44 PM EDT See, like Rocket said, "the ease of exchange of useful but uncommon information." That's another great point DLOW, thanks. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
DLOWTHEMAD	11. RE: A thought concerning cows... May 5 2011, 2:22 PM EDT \| Post edited: May 5 2011, 2:22 PM EDT No problem, I grew up around cattle ranches, tobacco, and dairy farms. I picked up a little bit. I also was going to point out to ya'll that are looking for milk supply that there are some important sanitary points that weren't followed in the old days that you might be interested about. Commercial dairies have to cleanse the teat before milking to prevent dirt, manure, and the resulting germs don't contaminate the milk. Without partuerization, this step will be even more important. You may want to check into diseases and ailments common to dairy livestock, also. I've seen some pretty involved treatments for infections and rules about what milk to keep and what to toss so it doesn't make the consumer sick. Alot of people take for granted that agriculture is a college major, and there is alot to learn. If you want to have a successful agrarian community, a few college clsses may be a good idea. Post reply 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
White76Knight	12. RE: A thought concerning cows... May 6 2011, 11:03 AM EDT This is good information too. Not to say that we shouldn't be cleansing the animal to prevent contamination in the first place, but just out of curiosity, why wouldn't we be able to pasteurize? According to wikipaedia, pasteurization is simply heating milk to 71.7 °C (161 °F) for 15–20 seconds. That doesn't seem unduly difficult. Post reply 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
DLOWTHEMAD	13. RE: A thought concerning cows... May 6 2011, 11:36 AM EDT "This is good information too. Not to say that we shouldn't be cleansing the animal to prevent contamination in the first place, but just out of curiosity, why wouldn't we be able to pasteurize? According to wikipaedia, pasteurization is simply heating milk to 71.7 °C (161 °F) for 15–20 seconds. That doesn't seem unduly difficult. " It was more of a concern that it wouldn't be feasible, and honestly, i didn't realize it was such an easy process. It always happened after the milk left us :-D Post reply 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
White76Knight	14. RE: A thought concerning cows... May 6 2011, 5:10 PM EDT \| Post edited: May 6 2011, 5:10 PM EDT "It was more of a concern that it wouldn't be feasible, and honestly, i didn't realize it was such an easy process. It always happened after the milk left us :-D" See dude, research can be our friend. LOL - Just kidding, bro. Like I said before, great info anyway. Post reply 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
Rocketman52	15. RE: A thought concerning cows... May 6 2011, 7:24 PM EDT \| Post edited: May 6 2011, 9:59 PM EDT Now THAT would be the ticket. I think the hardest part would be finding the right temperature. Combine that with WK's spring-house info, and you're golden. We need IMMC in here, I think he owns goats. Haha we'll get him to lead the page effort. XD I stand corrected. He used to own goats. Lol Post reply Do you find this valuable?
White76Knight	16. RE: A thought concerning cows... May 7 2011, 8:12 AM EDT \| Post edited: May 7 2011, 8:12 AM EDT "Now THAT would be the ticket. I think the hardest part would be finding the right temperature. Combine that with WK's spring-house info, and you're golden. We need IMMC in here, I think he owns goats. Haha we'll get him to lead the page effort. XD I stand corrected. He used to own goats. Lol" Finding the right temp is nothing that can't be done with a standard kitchen thermometer. Might not hurt to have one or two of these socked away for future use. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
DonovanRichter	17. RE: A thought concerning cows... May 7 2011, 10:21 AM EDT I could totally go with goats. =^_^= Sometimes I think that a lot of the commonly farmed things are really all about volume. There are so many wild edibles that could take the place of things you find in stores just growing all around. I guess they just don't make a good cash crop, but they'd still be really useful in an apocalyptic situation =^_^= Post reply Do you find this valuable?
White76Knight	18. RE: A thought concerning cows... May 7 2011, 10:49 AM EDT Edible wild plants are a great idea, but as quoted from my own Survival Plan... "unless you are a certified expert, or are very thoroughly experienced, in not just plants in general, but in the specific plants of the specific region where you happen to be located (or where your BOL is located), it might be a better idea to stay away from plants until you have the opportunity to learn more. Here's the facts: - ALL fur bearing mammals are safe to eat, and will provide nutrients and calories. - ALL 6 legged insects are safe to eat (at least where I live, learn the ones that aren't if your area differs), and will provide nutrients and calories. - Almost all freshwater fish and almost all birds are safe to eat, and will provide nutrients and calories. however: - MANY plants can make you sick or poison you, and even among the ones that aren't toxic, many still contain no useful nutrition. A few plants are, in fact, excellent sources of nutrition, but unless you have taken the time in advance to learn what these specific plants are, you may be taking a big chance. (Cont'd) Post reply Do you find this valuable?
White76Knight	19. RE: A thought concerning cows... May 7 2011, 10:49 AM EDT ...Even the edible ones aren't necessarily edible all year long, there are some plants that will feed you in the spring but poison you in the fall or vice versa. Further, some plants will feed you if you eat the stems and poison you if you eat the flowers, or vice versa. It's a simple equation... if it walks, crawls, swims or flies, the odds are in your favor that it's not only safe to eat it, but that it will provide you with the nutrition and energy your body needs. If it sits there like... well... like a plant, then odds are against you both for your own physical safety, and for nutritional content. It's just not worth the gamble unless you are absolutely sure! Now, none of this is to say that we should never eat wild plants, quite the contrary; I believe that the proper identification and gathering of this edible wild plant life will be crucial to any survivor, as there are essential vitamins and minerals found in plants that are difficult to find anywhere else. What I'm saying is that everyone who is serious about survival should endeavor to learn as much as they are able not just about plants, but about the specific plants of the specific region in which they happen to be located (or where their BOL is located, or wherever). Post reply Do you find this valuable?

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