Location: The Concept of Zeroing a Rifle

Discussion: Zeroing in a scopeReported This is a featured thread

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deep_sea_diver
deep_sea_diver
Zeroing in a scope
Apr 6 2011, 8:57 AM EDT | Post edited: Apr 6 2011, 8:57 AM EDT
Ideally, you want to mount the scope, as close to the top of the barrel as possible. The distance between the line of the bore, and the line of sight, is called paralax. The greater this distance, the more error tolerance occurs. With most sporting rifles, the scope mounts ontop of the reciever, however with the AR series, often the scope mounts ontop of the carry handle. This gives you about a 3 1/2 in paralax to deal with. You can use this to your advantage to set up a battlefield 0. If you set your 0 to 100 meters, the bullet roughly takes the following flight course. The bullet hits 3 1/2 low at 25 meters, begining to climb to the first 0 at 100 meters, the line of flight crosses the line of sight. The bullet now climbs to 3 1/2 inches above line of sight, settleing down to 0 again around 300 meters, and falling to 3 1/2 in below line of sight by about 400 meters.

In a nutshell, with this 0, you can hold on to center of mass, and it's a hit (within 3 1/2" or less) clear out to 400 meters. With a graduated scope, you can move your reticle mark for an even tighter hit.
Hope this helps, good luck on Z day
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Sharpie41
Sharpie41
1. RE: Zeroing in a scope
Apr 6 2011, 11:16 AM EDT | Post edited: Apr 6 2011, 11:16 AM EDT
"Ideally, you want to mount the scope, as close to the top of the barrel as possible. The distance between the line of the bore, and the line of sight, is called paralax. The greater this distance, the more error tolerance occurs. With most sporting rifles, the scope mounts ontop of the reciever, however with the AR series, often the scope mounts ontop of the carry handle. This gives you about a 3 1/2 in paralax to deal with. You can use this to your advantage to set up a battlefield 0. If you set your 0 to 100 meters, the bullet roughly takes the following flight course. The bullet hits 3 1/2 low at 25 meters, begining to climb to the first 0 at 100 meters, the line of flight crosses the line of sight. The bullet now climbs to 3 1/2 inches above line of sight, settleing down to 0 again around 300 meters, and falling to 3 1/2 in below line of sight by about 400 meters.

In a nutshell, with this 0, you can hold on to center of mass, and it's a hit (within 3 1/2" or less) clear out to 400 meters. With a graduated scope, you can move your reticle mark for an even tighter hit.
Hope this helps, good luck on Z day"
I know I've been an @$hole about a few of your other posts as they were "Yeah, Yeah we know all that" but this is quite helpful, I'll keep all this in mind when I Zero the scope I got for Christmas for my Marlin 60
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possumblaster
possumblaster
2. RE: Zeroing in a scope
Apr 6 2011, 11:17 AM EDT | Post edited: Apr 6 2011, 11:56 AM EDT
"Ideally, you want to mount the scope, as close to the top of the barrel as possible. The distance between the line of the bore, and the line of sight, is called paralax. The greater this distance, the more error tolerance occurs. With most sporting rifles, the scope mounts ontop of the reciever, however with the AR series, often the scope mounts ontop of the carry handle. This gives you about a 3 1/2 in paralax to deal with. You can use this to your advantage to set up a battlefield 0. If you set your 0 to 100 meters, the bullet roughly takes the following flight course. The bullet hits 3 1/2 low at 25 meters, begining to climb to the first 0 at 100 meters, the line of flight crosses the line of sight. The bullet now climbs to 3 1/2 inches above line of sight, settleing down to 0 again around 300 meters, and falling to 3 1/2 in below line of sight by about 400 meters."
http://www.zombiesurvivalwiki.com/thread/2696357/Rifle+Zeroing+101
This is my zero write up from '09.

If your sights are 3 1/2 inches above the bore, and you zero for 100 yards, your zero is going to be closer to 150 to maybe 200 (With an AR that you mentioned). Regardless of sight height over bore, the bullet has to climb a total of around 6 1/4" to be on at 300.

If you are using the crap iron sight mount your parallax is actually closer to probably 5". The iron sights alone almost sit close to 3" above the bore, add a big block on top of the iron sights and then a scope on top of that and you are probably pushing 5", which in theory would be close to a 300m zero from 100.

I'm not trying to rip your post apart, but I just want to make sure you have your numbers straight before someone follows your post and gets completely lost with their zero.

Also both your post and mine pertain to the AR platform shooting .223, everyone needs to be aware of that. The concepts are the same, but the numbers will be different.
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Sharpie41
Sharpie41
3. RE: Zeroing in a scope
Apr 6 2011, 11:33 AM EDT | Post edited: Apr 6 2011, 11:33 AM EDT
"http://www.zombiesurvivalwiki.com/thread/2696357/Rifle+Zeroing+101
This is my zero write up from '09.

If your sights are 3 1/2 inches above the bore, and you zero for 100 yards, your zero is going to be closer to 150 to maybe 200 (With an AR that you mentioned). The bullet has to climb a total of around 6 1/4" to be on at 300.

If you are using the crap iron sight mount your parallax is actually closer to probably 5". The iron sights alone almost sit close to 3" above the bore, add a big block on top of the iron sights and then a scope on top of that and you are probably pushing 5", which in theory would be close to a 300m zero from 100.

Also, how do you figure that if your sights are 3 1/2" above the bore, you have a 100m zero, that you would hit 3 1/2" low at 25m??? Just think about it.

I'm not trying to rip your post apart, but I just want to make sure you have your numbers straight before someone follows your post and gets completely lost with their zero."
Keep in mind I'm not going to have a 3.5 paralax though, I mean if I do follow this
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randomknife666
randomknife666
4. RE: Zeroing in a scope
Apr 6 2011, 11:42 AM EDT | Post edited: Apr 6 2011, 11:42 AM EDT
"I know I've been an @$hole about a few of your other posts as they were "Yeah, Yeah we know all that" but this is quite helpful."
Yeah, I have to agree, I might look this thread up again when we take the Enfield out for sighting.
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possumblaster
possumblaster
5. RE: Zeroing in a scope
Apr 6 2011, 11:48 AM EDT | Post edited: Apr 6 2011, 11:53 AM EDT
"Keep in mind I'm not going to have a 3.5 paralax though, I mean if I do follow this"
If you are zeroing a .22LR then you will need a whole new set of numbers, just FYI.

http://www.gunsmoke.com/guns/1022/22ballistics.html
Here is a set of drop tables for the .22LR

http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi
If you really know what you are doing you can input all bullet data into this calculator to give you specific drop tables for any zero with any cartridge

The last link is good for determining the optimal zero with your sight height and any cartridge
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Sharpie41
Sharpie41
6. RE: Zeroing in a scope
Apr 6 2011, 12:01 PM EDT | Post edited: Apr 6 2011, 12:01 PM EDT
"If you are zeroing a .22LR then you will need a whole new set of numbers, just FYI.

http://www.gunsmoke.com/guns/1022/22ballistics.html
Here is a set of drop tables for the .22LR

http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi
If you really know what you are doing you can input all bullet data into this calculator to give you specific drop tables for any zero with any cartridge

The last link is good for determining the optimal zero with your sight height and any cartridge"
Yeah I knew that

Thanks for the links, I'll have to check them out later
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cas13f
cas13f
7. RE: Zeroing in a scope
Apr 6 2011, 12:26 PM EDT | Post edited: Apr 6 2011, 12:26 PM EDT
Most scopes on ARs use the crappy carry handle mount, WAT?
Most of the time, when someone wants to put a scope on an AR-pattern rifle, they planned this ahead of time and either use an A4 flattop-with-removable-carry-handle configuration, or start out with a straight flattop with some BUIS.
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Sharpie41
Sharpie41
8. RE: Zeroing in a scope
Apr 6 2011, 12:37 PM EDT | Post edited: Apr 6 2011, 12:37 PM EDT
"Most scopes on ARs use the crappy carry handle mount, WAT?
Most of the time, when someone wants to put a scope on an AR-pattern rifle, they planned this ahead of time and either use an A4 flattop-with-removable-carry-handle configuration, or start out with a straight flattop with some BUIS."
What about when you guys used the M16, A1 and A2? That's what he's saying
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possumblaster
possumblaster
9. RE: Zeroing in a scope
Apr 6 2011, 12:51 PM EDT | Post edited: Apr 6 2011, 1:01 PM EDT
"What about when you guys used the M16, A1 and A2? That's what he's saying"
M16A1, 2, and 3 then you use the irons. Putting that piece of crap mount up on top the carry handle is about the worst thing anyone can ever do to an AR. It's not solid, it just sits in the groove held down by a dinky little bolt. It's impossible to get any kind of cheek weld and the sights are so high off the bore good luck hitting anything other than at the range zeroed at. I think they had a scope that fit in there back in the Vietnam days, but then someone finally came to their senses and realized that a scope sitting a foot above the barrel (not really, but you get the point) isn't the best idea.

Like cas13f says, you are 1000x better off to plan ahead and get the A4/flat top upper if you plan on using ANY kind of optics.

There is nothing wrong with A1 or A2 irons, but damn it's ghetto to put an optic up there. Especially some giant wal-mart scope.

If your optic is not on the same plane as your iron sights then the gun is going to shoot completely different at various ranges, there's just nothing good to say about the "carry handle" scope mounts.

Hell, you can buy just the flat top upper for about $90 and swap it out yourself with a few tools.
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cas13f
cas13f
10. RE: Zeroing in a scope
Apr 6 2011, 6:34 PM EDT | Post edited: Apr 6 2011, 6:34 PM EDT
"What about when you guys used the M16, A1 and A2? That's what he's saying"
I had an A4 in Basic. Flat-top. BUIS instead of removable carry handle.
I got an A2 issued to me here, and it will never have a scope or other optic on it.
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cas13f
cas13f
11. RE: Zeroing in a scope
Apr 6 2011, 6:36 PM EDT | Post edited: Apr 6 2011, 6:36 PM EDT
"M16A1, 2, and 3 then you use the irons. Putting that piece of crap mount up on top the carry handle is about the worst thing anyone can ever do to an AR. It's not solid, it just sits in the groove held down by a dinky little bolt. It's impossible to get any kind of cheek weld and the sights are so high off the bore good luck hitting anything other than at the range zeroed at. I think they had a scope that fit in there back in the Vietnam days, but then someone finally came to their senses and realized that a scope sitting a foot above the barrel (not really, but you get the point) isn't the best idea.

Like cas13f says, you are 1000x better off to plan ahead and get the A4/flat top upper if you plan on using ANY kind of optics.

There is nothing wrong with A1 or A2 irons, but damn it's ghetto to put an optic up there. Especially some giant wal-mart scope.

If your optic is not on the same plane as your iron sights then the gun is going to shoot completely different at various ranges, there's just nothing good to say about the "carry handle" scope mounts.

Hell, you can buy just the flat top upper for about $90 and swap it out yourself with a few tools."
You'll only need tools if you have really stiff pins.

Flat-top uppers range from $130 to $500 based on configuration and features. Depends on what you want with it, but most should be fine with the $130 model, unless they are planning some kind of competition rig.
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Filadog
Filadog
12. RE: Zeroing in a scope
Apr 6 2011, 8:29 PM EDT | Post edited: Apr 6 2011, 8:29 PM EDT
Parallax is when your reticle is not on the same focal plane as the target. Eye movement behind the scope equates to the target moving out from under the reticle. When this occurs, and the reticle is then rmoved from the new eye position, zero is affected and the group center moves. When both reticle and target are on the same focal plane, the image is said to be "parallax free" and eye movement is not critical to point of impact...Many scopes can be adjusted for parallax

Distance of scope over the bore is called scope offset I believe

I have a carry handle scoped AR and I have it sighted in so that it is dead on at 50 yds. doing this it gives you about this

25 yds...1 1/2 in. low
50yds 0
100yds..1 in high
200yds..0
300yds ..7 in. low
350 yds 14 in. low
400 yds 23 in. low

This gun is a Colt HBAR and I thought about switching out the upper reciever but is a rather collectable gun and I didn't want to mess with it. Even with a flat top unless you don't have a front sight you still have to mount the scope high enough up so the front sight doesn't interfer with loking through it

My handle mount is very sercure and no trouble at all with it. Colt made a cheek rest that attached to the stock for these , but I don't have one
Guess a flat top mount would be "Better" but this works fine for me, and remember this was how it was done for years befor they came out with flat top recievers....Perssonaly I sort of like the look...kind of retro!

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possumblaster
possumblaster
13. RE: Zeroing in a scope
Apr 6 2011, 9:28 PM EDT | Post edited: Apr 6 2011, 9:30 PM EDT
@Filadog: Whatever floats your boat, I just can't get comfortable with them. Option #2 could be a factory Colt flat-top upper. I am pretty sure Colt sold them as flat tops as well:
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=4796/sku=160-302-053/Product/AR_15_M16_UPPER_RECEIVER

But, it's your rifle and I'm sure you have it set up how you like it.

I for one have never had a problem with the front sight getting in the way. Every scope I've used to include the ACOG have looked right through it with no distortion.
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