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Discussion: Range estimation
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deep_sea_diver |
Range estimation
May 5 2011, 5:08 AM EDT
The first step, towards making a hit on target is range estimation. Most of a rifles power is found on the downward curve of the trajectory. Thru the first 100 meters or so a rifle shoots fairly flat, regardless of caliber, beyond that bullet drop compensation must be made. While it is possible to learn to estimate ranges on sight, a laser range finder is alot faster and more accurate way to determine how far out the target it.With your rifle sighted in, at 200 meters, and a small drop chart of different ranges and bullet weights taped to the stock, you can make rapid sight changes for range. For example, lets assume your chart shows 10" of bullet drop, at 300 meters. you flash the range, it comes out 294 meters, simply guesstimate 10" above where you want the bullet to strike, move up point of aim. This is alot faster, and eaiser than doing the math. A decent rangefinder is around $100. Good luck on Z day 1 out of 5 found this valuable. Do you? |
possumblaster |
1. RE: Range estimation
May 5 2011, 7:19 AM EDT
| Post edited: May 5 2011, 7:36 AM EDT
Most of a rifles power is on downward curve of trajectory? False. The bullet loses power the second it leaves the barrel, and continues to lose power until it makes impact. Where did you get that information?Take you store bought laser rangefinder and I guarantee anyone with any training will get a more accurate reading using mils. DSD, can you tell me the proper way to range a target with a laser? Guestimation does not work with long range shooting. If you are only going to be shooting 100-300 meters then this page isn't for you. I was trying to explain the concepts of true long range marksmanship to others who would like to learn. I'm not trying to jump your case, but you have to have your facts straight if you want to debate. I also ask please, if anyone wants to make changes to the page please contact me first, or add to the bottom. I would like to screen information so that the guide stays correct. Thanks 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
Filadog |
2. RE: Range estimation
May 5 2011, 8:49 AM EDT
"Take you store bought laser rangefinder and I guarantee anyone with any training will get a more accurate reading using mils. "Thats just nonsense Today most good rangefinders are close to being 100% accurate as to range , at the most only a foot or so off at 100 yds I'd like to see a person get this close using mill dots Range can be accuratly estimated using mill dots if you know the size of your target. Sure Works OK if the target is a 6 ft man standing still in the open. If all you can see is part of him or are shooting at a deer whose size might not be known exactly then things change Many range finders today have drop tables built right in that shows "hold over" needed to hit the target I think all shooters should learn how to estimate range with out having to use a range finder , but using a range finder does make it easier and more accurate. Thats why snipers and other long range shooters use them today 0 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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possumblaster |
3. RE: Range estimation
May 5 2011, 3:49 PM EDT
| Post edited: May 5 2011, 3:56 PM EDT
I wouldn't trust a hand held laser to get a range from a target. If the laser isn't perfectly zeroed with the reticle then the range will be off. With mils there is no question. Did you read the page? There are formulas that work with targets with known size in inches. Even if a rangefinder had build in drop tables how would it know your bullet weight, caliber, ballistic coefficient, velocity, and sight height? Without that critical information there is no way a built in drop table would be accurate at extreme ranges. I have never seen any military sniper teams use a laser rangefinder. If you can name any then go for it and correct me. Every sniper team that I have ever encountered used nothing more than a spotting scope and calculations with mils. Everything I have discussed is information taught to us by our battalion's sniper section. These are methods they trained us on, and never once were laser rangefinders ever brought up. I'm just saying that I'm speaking from personal experience, and not just from stuff I read somewhere on the internet. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
Destructakor |
4. RE: Range estimation
May 5 2011, 8:05 PM EDT
I thought the spotting scopes had range-finders in them. And then they have the wind calculation thing and pressure on that little GPS type thing they carry.
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possumblaster |
5. RE: Range estimation
May 5 2011, 8:53 PM EDT
" And then they have the wind calculation thing and pressure on that little GPS type thing they carry. "Now I have seen that. I have not however seen the laser rangefinder built into the spotting scope. I'm not saying they aren't out there, I'm just saying the unit we trained with did not have them. Basically I was just trying to make a guide that I felt would be a useful addition based on my personal experience. I made no mention of laser rangefinders because I do not have personal experience with them (except for the cheap Cabela's ones that I wouldn't trust as far as I could throw) If anyone would like to add a note about laser rangefinders that has experience with them is welcome to it, as long as the information is correct. Do you find this valuable? |
John_234 |
6. RE: Range estimation
May 6 2011, 7:26 PM EDT
On a related note, possum, what optic were you using in that long range zombie blastin vid you put up on youtube?
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SGTGerman |
7. RE: Range estimation
May 7 2011, 2:57 AM EDT
I have been told that when the "bullet" leaves the barrel it raises slightly, which is why we are taught to aim for the bottom centre on the target in order to hit the centre.
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Filadog |
8. RE: Range estimation
May 7 2011, 7:54 AM EDT
"I have been told that when the "bullet" leaves the barrel it raises slightly, which is why we are taught to aim for the bottom centre on the target in order to hit the centre. "The reason you aim for the bottom of the target is so your sight doesn't obstruct what you want to hit. This is called a "6 O'clock" hold where your target sets right on top of the front sight, if your front sight covers your target you can't tell how much of it it is covering and you may shoot high. Think about it if it was because the bullet is riaising wouldn't you just adjust your sight? Heres a link to a modern range finder http://en.leica-camera.com/sport_optics/rangemaster/crf_1600/ Not only does it gives you the exact distance to the target but has a computer that has various balistic tables built right in to give you the exact hold over needed for the shot. Also takes in account temperture and barometic pressure to calculate this, all in less then a half a second I believe .....For instance ...You have it set for a balistic table which matches the load you are shooting where the bullet will drop 2 inch at 200 yards and 3 inchs at 300 yards, you ranage the target and it comes out to 278 yds then shows bullet drop as being 2 .7 inchs. I have a friend that does some long range hunting out west witha Remington Sendra .300 mag and he has one and loves it. and says it works perfectly Tells me most long range shooters are switching to them, and of course regular laser range finders have been almost mandatory for years now for this type of shooting I believe all shooters should learn how to estimate distance with out relying on electronics , but to think you can do it more accurately or faster then a laser range finder like this is to ignor realities Do you find this valuable? |
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SGTGerman |
9. RE: Range estimation
May 7 2011, 12:19 PM EDT
"The reason you aim for the bottom of the target is so your sight doesn't obstruct what you want to hit. This is called a "6 O'clock" hold where your target sets right on top of the front sight, if your front sight covers your target you can't tell how much of it it is covering and you may shoot high.No disrespect intended mate but the explanation I explained was what I was told. Our rear sights are now fixed at 200M, meaning we have to aim off at every range other than 200M. On the 300M I was aiming at the bloody sand back lol just to hit the bottom centre. Do you find this valuable? |
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Filadog |
10. RE: Range estimation
May 7 2011, 1:29 PM EDT
"No disrespect intended mate but the explanation I explained was what I was told. Our rear sights are now fixed at 200M, meaning we have to aim off at every range other than 200M. On the 300M I was aiming at the bloody sand back lol just to hit the bottom centre.Sort of lost me here .. I don't know what type of rifle you are shooting that doesn't have adjustable sights, not that it makes a difference but having to hold over a target to compensate for the bullet drop is completly different then having to aim low because somehow the bullet is rising as it leaves the barrel. If you sight your rifle in so that it it dead on at 300 yards it will shoot high at 100 yards , not because the bullet somehow rises when it leaves the the barrel, but because you have the barrel elevated so that the shot will hit dead on at 300 yds with out hold over . This causes the shot to go higher at closer ranges where it hasn't dropped as much Do you find this valuable? |
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possumblaster |
11. RE: Range estimation
May 7 2011, 2:41 PM EDT
| Post edited: May 7 2011, 2:51 PM EDT
"On a related note, possum, what optic were you using in that long range zombie blastin vid you put up on youtube?"LOL, that scope was an extremely cheapo 4-16 Center point that you can get at Walmart. I would never ever trust it in combat, it held zero just long enough to shoot the video. However, the mils in the reticle seem to be true enough for ranging. Really that's all I bought the scope for was to practice ranging and making windage adjustments until I can afford a really nice Leupold Mark IV or something along those lines. Or maybe a nice Nightforce. The cheapie scope returns back to zero when making adjustments, the problem is that it does not hold a zero well. I don't recommend them for anything other than playing around such as I was. They are fun to use though if you are on a budget. I wanted a scope that I could afford that day that had external windage and drop adjustment turrets set in MOA. It fulfilled it's duty, and now sits on a shelf collecting dust. In my opinion, I like to stick to the theory that a scope or should cost half as much as the rifle. A $100 rifle gets a $50 scope A $2,500 rifle gets a $1,250 scope (meaning that by the time I can afford a Mark IV I would likely need a rifle that I can't even afford to buy right now lol) For reflex sights I just stick with the Trijicon TriPowers because I have used them a lot and have never been let down by a Trijicon product. Do you find this valuable? |
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possumblaster |
12. RE: Range estimation
May 7 2011, 2:50 PM EDT
"This was basically going to be my response to German, but I see Filadog has already covered it. It is true that people mistakenly think the bullet actually "climbs" when it leaves the barrel. Most never stop to think that it climbs because the barrel is pointed up :) Do you find this valuable? |
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possumblaster |
13. RE: Range estimation
May 7 2011, 4:15 PM EDT
"Faster no. I still believe using mils is just as accurate however, and we will never agree on this. That rangefinder you listed costs almost $1000. All I was trying to do was post information that I thought would benefit others. If you feel that laser rangefinders are better than the mil system then by all means edit the page. I only added information that I knew of as a fact. Do you find this valuable? |
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SGTGerman |
14. RE: Range estimation
May 8 2011, 6:14 AM EDT
"This was basically going to be my response to German, but I see Filadog has already covered it.Thanks Possum that sounds more like what I was told :) @Filadog - Once upon a time you had two iron sights on the SA80 - the "Battle sight" used when you came straight into a contact set at 200 or 300M and the actually rear sights that you could adjust for 100 - 500M. Nowadays we have a "Night sight" basically the same as the battle sight but a bigger hole and the rear sight fixed at 200M, i.e. you can't adjust it for the range and have to aim off. Not sure what genious thought this was a good idea but...you know... Do you find this valuable? |
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Filadog |
15. RE: Range estimation
May 8 2011, 9:36 AM EDT
"Thanks Possum that sounds more like what I was told :)I think the elevation is adjusted on the SA80 by moving the front sight not the rear Do you find this valuable? |
DevilNuts |
16. RE: Range estimation
May 8 2011, 6:39 PM EDT
I use a trick that doesn't require any sort of fancy toys: The thumbnail estimation. Holding your arm fully outstretched, stick your thumb up and measure on your thumbnail the height of a human-sized target at 200, 300 and 500 yards ( I use these because they are the distances I shoot on to qualify -- you can use whichever distances you like). Just mark off the height on your nail with a pen, or (carefully) a knife. After awhile, you wont even need the pen anymore, you will just have it memorized. Just stick up your thumb and you can estimate your range to the target fairly accurately without lasers or high-speed gadgets. Do you find this valuable? |
Ready_For_Z-Day |
17. RE: Range estimation
May 8 2011, 6:47 PM EDT
I used to bullseye swamp rats back on my home planet and they're not much bigger than 2 meters.
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DevilNuts |
18. RE: Range estimation
May 8 2011, 10:55 PM EDT
"I used to bullseye swamp rats back on my home planet and they're not much bigger than 2 meters."Womp rats, friend. You used to bullseye Womp Rats back home in Beggar's Canyon with your T-16. There are no swamps on Tattooine. Good grief I'm such a nerd. Do you find this valuable? |
Abu_Fulan |
19. RE: Range estimation
May 8 2011, 11:39 PM EDT
I don't have any experience shooting past 300 meters but I think it's important to point out another method of range estimation: landmarks. You use whatever method you want to gauge the distance between your most likely fighting position and something that stands out from the terrain in the most likely avenue of enemy approach. like a big tree. (If you know your pace count, that's probably the simplest means.) You repeat the process with two or three landmarks at varied distances -- maybe 50m, 100m and 200m. Now imagine that after Z-Day you have to fire at the enemy with your rifle that's zeroed for 100m. You visually reference the landmarks. Then adjust your point of aim based on the enemy's position in reference to the nearest landmark. Voila, range estimation. Do you find this valuable? |
