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PedroAsani |
Concrete / Cement question
Jun 22 2011, 5:18 PM EDT
I am just running a few numbers, and could use some expertise from anyone who has ever poured large volumes of concrete.I have a price for 50kg cement bags. I am looking to work out cost per cuft. So if I use a standard recipe of 1 part cement, 2.5 sand, 2.5 gravel, 0.5 water, I have 325kg of concrete. So how many cuft do I have? Second, is there a stronger recipe to use? Something that can hold up to more punishment? Something that lasts longer in/near salt water? Do you find this valuable?
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theman838 |
1. RE: Concrete / Cement question
Jun 22 2011, 5:44 PM EDT
| Post edited: Jun 22 2011, 8:04 PM EDT
"I am just running a few numbers, and could use some expertise from anyone who has ever poured large volumes of concrete.Finally building the fortress of deathitude? P.s. Using Rebar? Do you find this valuable? |
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FrankLeeDeRainged |
2. RE: Concrete / Cement question
Jun 22 2011, 5:59 PM EDT
Meters mate, concrete comes in cubic meters. Even in Britain, anything smaller than a cubic meter isn't worth counting, except in Polish labourer hours.There are lots of things that make concrete harder but if you push that to it's extreme you can pour it like glass. There is gear called advancer, likewise you can get retarders. They are mostly used for quick setting or long pours, a twenty meter shaft can't be filled instantly so you add retarder, see? The advancer has the side effect of making the mix harder. Generally speaking the more dust (actual cement powder) you add the 'harder' your muck but that's not necessarily stronger. Unless it's a padstone for a column for instance. (God, I'm crap at explaining things) I was told the Romans invented 'Marine' saltwater setting concrete by adding volcanic pumice, and the secret was lost until the wily Japanese re-invented a process in the 1970s. There are a shedload of plasticizers and things to make the concrete waterproof but they are expensive! Otherwise no one would bother doing tanking, they'd just use waterproof concrete wouldn't they? I've been on Ministry of Defence jobs that use full on waterproof concrete and it stinks. it smells of resin, like the mix the use for swimming pools and boatbuilding. So that's the hardness of the concrete and the water resistance. Neither of those is the strength which normally comes from the steel but while drilling holes in a bank vault (don't ask!) you will find metal disks mixed with the concrete as well as the rebar, that's to deflect the force of explosions so there's different kinds of strength as well. . . Big old topic ain't it? _ Do you find this valuable? |
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PedroAsani |
3. RE: Concrete / Cement question
Jun 22 2011, 6:14 PM EDT
"Financially building the fortress of deathitude?Yes and yes, which I figure will decrease the amount of concrete needed. Figures so far: 3,708,237 cuft. of concrete required. A 50kg bag of cement will produce 325kg of concrete using a 1/2.5/2.5/0.5 mix of cement, gravel, sand and water. Internet says that you can get roughly 11.724469351 cuft. from that. Cement is sold by the metric ton. So I can get 6,500kg of concrete from a single tonne. 234.48938702 cuft per tonne. So I need 15,814 tonnes of cement. Roughly $60 per tonne = $948,845. So $1,000,000 for materials. But is the mixture above the best? Is it the strongest, most resilient? Do you find this valuable? |
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PedroAsani |
4. RE: Concrete / Cement question
Jun 22 2011, 6:16 PM EDT
"Meters mate, concrete comes in cubic meters. Even in Britain, anything smaller than a cubic meter isn't worth counting, except in Polish labourer hours.And this is the reason I love the internet. Do you find this valuable? |
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PedroAsani |
5. RE: Concrete / Cement question
Jun 22 2011, 6:18 PM EDT
"while drilling holes in a bank vault (don't ask!) "Ok, this is going to be something you need to tell at some point. Do you find this valuable? |
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PedroAsani |
6. RE: Concrete / Cement question
Jun 22 2011, 6:22 PM EDT
"Meters mate, concrete comes in cubic meters. Even in Britain, anything smaller than a cubic meter isn't worth counting, except in Polish labourer hours."I measured in cuft because that is how I designed the place. Ballistic numbers for bullets vs concrete were in feet, nuclear radiation vs concrete was in feet. Land size is in acres, gun ranges are in yards. Do you find this valuable? |
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FrankLeeDeRainged |
7. RE: Concrete / Cement question
Jun 22 2011, 6:23 PM EDT
| Post edited: Jun 22 2011, 6:26 PM EDT
If it's a substantial job you could try downloading one of those 'Home Architect' programs, Hell of a lot easier than Archi-Cad and even the cabin building for dummies type will calculate your quantities for you.[edit] A standard mixer truck carries five meters. . . _ Do you find this valuable? |
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brandon_a_boyer |
8. RE: Concrete / Cement question
Jun 22 2011, 6:23 PM EDT
| Post edited: Jun 22 2011, 6:50 PM EDT
*editjust google "concrete salt water" Do you find this valuable? |
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PedroAsani |
9. RE: Concrete / Cement question
Jun 22 2011, 6:28 PM EDT
"There are lots of things that make concrete harder but if you push that to it's extreme you can pour it like glass. There is gear called advancer, likewise you can get retarders. They are mostly used for quick setting or long pours, a twenty meter shaft can't be filled instantly so you add retarder, see? The advancer has the side effect of making the mix harder. Generally speaking the more dust (actual cement powder) you add the 'harder' your muck but that's not necessarily stronger. Unless it's a padstone for a column for instance.So there are different things you can do to make concrete stronger and harder, but it depends on what you are hardening against? I'm looking at a combination of bullets, sea-water from ocean spray and rain, and natural exposure. I figured rebar and mesh would help as well. Do you find this valuable? |
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FrankLeeDeRainged |
10. RE: Concrete / Cement question
Jun 22 2011, 6:42 PM EDT
| Post edited: Jun 22 2011, 6:51 PM EDT
Yaay brandon's here the man who can explain : D Only ocean spray? Paint it. That's a f**k sight cheaper than fancy concrete mixes. But I've never worked on 'bullet proof', bomb proof yea, third world war proof yea but not bullets. . . _ Do you find this valuable? |
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GrampaAllen |
11. RE: Concrete / Cement question
Jun 22 2011, 7:18 PM EDT
"Meters mate, concrete comes in cubic meters. Even in Britain, anything smaller than a cubic meter isn't worth counting, except in Polish labourer hours.I wonder if that was why we ran into something like that in the old shelter in DC Do you find this valuable? |
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FrankLeeDeRainged |
12. RE: Concrete / Cement question
Jun 22 2011, 7:40 PM EDT
wouldn't you be better off with blockwork? Last UK job I did was high security prison cells (don't ask) the spec was standard 50 newton concrete blocks laid flat and end on! So the length of each block became the thickness of each skin, there were two skins tied on every single course and there was expanded steel mesh between the skins. God alone knows who they were building it for, but it was as solid as something poured and given it was in the centre of the 4th floor a lot easier to build. _ Do you find this valuable? |
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randomknife666 |
13. RE: Concrete / Cement question
Jun 22 2011, 7:55 PM EDT
" Last UK job I did was high security prison cells (don't ask) "Drilling into bank vaults, and something about High security prisons. I know you say don't ask, but WTF? Sounds like the plot to a Jason Statham movie. Do you find this valuable? |
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PedroAsani |
14. RE: Concrete / Cement question
Jun 22 2011, 8:00 PM EDT
"wouldn't you be better off with blockwork? Last UK job I did was high security prison cells (don't ask) the spec was standard 50 newton concrete blocks laid flat and end on! So the length of each block became the thickness of each skin, there were two skins tied on every single course and there was expanded steel mesh between the skins.Blocks did cross my mind, but then I need them cast and shipped. Or, cheaper alternative, rent a blockmaker and cast them on-site. Saves a lot of shipping, but back to the "best concrete recipe" issue. Do you find this valuable? |
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FrankLeeDeRainged |
15. RE: Concrete / Cement question
Jun 23 2011, 5:18 AM EDT
| Post edited: Jun 23 2011, 5:31 AM EDT
I don't think you have any special needs for your concrete here. I'm not up on the ballistics stuff but I can't imagine a standard foot of steel reinforced concrete having any trouble shrugging off small arms fire. The gun enthusiasts here know far more about this than I. I'd use your standard local mix with whatever aggregate is normal there, pay attention to quality control if your mixing it by hand and rent a vibrator (no jokes please, I've heard them all). Against salt water just paint it, but I can share a trick there, use smooth shuttering. If you have purpose build steel shuttering it will produce a gloss, fine finish but if you are using planks or ply etc, line it with plastic before you pour and you'll get a dense smooth surface that has better weather resistance and paints better and cheaper. The overall 'strength' will come from your steelwork, there will likely be a specialist firm that will make up your forms for you, Show them your design and they will tell you how much steel you need and wire up the forms. They can be relied on to put more in than you actually need (they're selling it) so don't argue them down, which is what you'd normally do. And if you think your structure may be hit with RPG's or something then seek out some metal disks to mix with the aggregate. Any snippets of scrap bar would do but disks can go into the mixer and not make things complicated. I'll post some pictures of plastic lined and normal plank shuttered concrete later. _ Do you find this valuable? |
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BigLoki |
16. RE: Concrete / Cement question
Jun 23 2011, 12:17 PM EDT
For what you're wanting to improve in the "cement", harder isn't exactly better. I think you would want a bit more resistance, and disbursement of force. I may be wrong... trying to give you advice on something is almost unnerving after all the plans and works of yours I've read; but this is an area I have a good bit of experience with.I'm a big advocate of hydraulic cement, or "portland" cement. The trouble is: almost ANY kind of cement mix is called portland, but not a true portland mix. I can't speak personally about the slat water mixes, I am aware of their use, but have never messed with it myself. With Hydraulic cement and the like, there is an addition of limestone, and clay; which is fired and then ground into the mix. .5% to the mix you have above would make it a "true portland" cement. This stuff is very durable, and very hard, without becoming brittle. Most concrete blocks are called portland blocks, but they really aren't. A good way to tell is to hit it with a hammer. A portland block will dent, a cement block will crack. For all the trouble you would have with casting blocks... I wouldn't recommend it, but it WOULD save you a good bit in material. I would just pour it myself. Depending on the thickness you intend to make it, regular rebar reinforcement should be sufficient. The biggest problem with cement as a bullet stop is cracking, and breakage due to its' brittle nature. By making it "hydraulic" you are taking a large amount of that problem out of the equation. Do you find this valuable? |
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PedroAsani |
17. RE: Concrete / Cement question
Jun 23 2011, 4:11 PM EDT
"For what you're wanting to improve in the "cement", harder isn't exactly better. I think you would want a bit more resistance, and disbursement of force."Yes. My original description was...not so descriptive. I need it to be as bullet resistant as possible. The idea is that post-Z I can't really order more concrete, so I want to minimise the need for repairs. I want it tough and durable, and if that means adding more cement, so be it. This is just for a rough costing exercise, so don't worry too much about accuracy. But, if more cement = more durability and/or resistance to bullets, then I would like to know how much more. The 1/2.5/2.5/0.5 ratio I have, or more like 1/1.5/2/0.5? Something else? The more accurate I can get with the costing, the better. Do you find this valuable? |
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AlaskanKnight |
18. RE: Concrete / Cement question
Nov 3 2011, 3:32 PM EDT
"I need it to be as bullet resistant as possible. The idea is that post-Z I can't really order more concrete, so I want to minimise the need for repairs."Wait, I'm confused. Are you asking about what sort of concrete to use for the house or for the retaining walls for each of the field steps? Honestly I'm wondering what it is you do for work to be able to propose such an idea, because it will be quite expensive. On an island like you're proposing this will be much more expensive than on a mainland because all supplies have to be shipped to it. Concrete in an of itself is fairly bullet resistant. Your biggest problem would be chipping and fractures. One way to minimize the problem of wear due to small arms fire might be to embed layers of wire mesh in the concrete when pouring, in the outer layer of it. In theory the wire mesh should act as a way to hold on to that outer layer. Honestly, with the thicknesses you're proposing, you'd have to sustain a ludicrous amount of conventional arms fire to pose any sort of structural or personal threat. tl:dr Basic concrete with no reinforcement is brittle, and would be most vulnerable to small arms. Adding rebar would help, and embedding a layer of steel mesh in the outside would help greatly. If you can afford it (Which you probably can if you can afford any of this) and are worried about larger scale threats such as indirect fire weaponry (Howitzers, mortars) or stronger direct-fire weaponry (Shoulder fired shaped charges, large-caliber vehicle-mounted weapons) then you could help mitigate against that sort of threat with ablative steel plates inside the concrete, like Frank mentioned in the bank vault, but even with rebar-reinforced or otherwise reinforced concrete you would be able to sustain minimal amounts of fire. Really, being harder to hit is a better plan than being able to take the hits. Your layout as it is now is very exposed. Do you find this valuable? |
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PedroAsani |
19. RE: Concrete / Cement question
Nov 3 2011, 4:19 PM EDT
"Wait, I'm confused. Are you asking about what sort of concrete to use for the house or for the retaining walls for each of the field steps?"Both. Again making a complex question more complex, would it make a difference? I'm looking for the most durable, bullet resistant concrete mix possible. I know that rebar is required to allow the "flex", but apparantly the US military (according to various write-ups, and a Mythbusters episode) have either a mix or specific cement they use to make their concrete. Do you find this valuable? |