Location: Genetically Modified Corn - The Bane of Self-Sufficiency?

Discussion: Genetically Modified Corn - The Bane of Existance Post Z-Day?

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x-wolfhunter	Genetically Modified Corn - The Bane of Existance Post Z-Day? Jan 14 2012, 5:19 PM EST You've heard of hybrid corn, right? Well, there may be something you haven't heard about it. The modified corn exhibits more yield and bigger and better kernels. You get more bang for your buck when you grow it. But if you plant it, year after year, eating some, selling some, and saving seeds, after three or four years, something very bad will happen to the corn: It will not grow kernels. This is because of inbreeding. You know what that is; You have kids with your siblings, and your kids have kids with their siblings, you're gonna get some pretty messed up kids. It's the same thing with hybrid corn; A few years down the line, and you're going to starve. There's also another kind of genetically modified corn, made by the company Monsanto (Evil people), that you have to put a certain chemical on during a certain time of their development if they are to produce seeds (kernels). Without the chemical, you won't get anything, once again. I guess the moral of what I'm saying is, a) only buy verified organic/natural corn seeds and b) if we keep this up, eventually we'll have no more sustainable food; we'll have to keep innovating and innovating, and then what? Economy goes boom (Or zombies or whatever), and we can no longer grow crops. People are stupid. Post reply Do you find this valuable? Keyword tags: None
IrishHitman	1. RE: Genetically Modified Corn - The Bane of Existance Post Z-Day? Jan 14 2012, 6:30 PM EST Definitely go organic when it comes to seeds.... Post reply Do you find this valuable?
PedroAsani	2. RE: Genetically Modified Corn - The Bane of Existance Post Z-Day? Jan 14 2012, 7:05 PM EST It's not because of inbreeding. Genetically modified means just that. They have modified the genes so that the corn won't produce if it is planted. Then you have to go buy more seeds. Not chemicals, not inbreeding. Genetic modification. Post reply 3 out of 3 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
Zee-Man	3. RE: Genetically Modified Corn - The Bane of Existance Post Z-Day? Jan 14 2012, 7:48 PM EST Just to clarify, there is a big difference between hybrid seed and GM seed. Hybrids are produced by cross pollination and selective breeding usually through heavily inbred parental plants. GM seed is produced by gene manipulation. Heirloom seeds may also be hybrids so long as they have bred true over a period of 50 years. Heirlooms are typically open pollinated, increasing the chance of cross pollination. Without cross breeding a plant becomes inbred and may also devolve to nonviable seed. The answer here is genetic diversity. Just using Heirloom tomato* seed is not enough. You need to have at least one other heirloom tomato for cross pollination or you run into the same problem as hybrid tomatoes. *True of all plants, tomato is used only as an example here. Post reply 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
x-wolfhunter	4. RE: Genetically Modified Corn - The Bane of Existance Post Z-Day? Jan 14 2012, 8:25 PM EST \| Post edited: Jan 14 2012, 8:28 PM EST "It's not because of inbreeding. Genetically modified means just that. They have modified the genes so that the corn won't produce if it is planted. Then you have to go buy more seeds. Not chemicals, not inbreeding. Genetic modification." And, yes, the hybrid corn only produces for a couple of years because of inbreeding. No genetic modifications there. http://www.livinghistoryfarm.org/farminginthe30s/crops_03.html And as a result of genetic modification, you have to give the soy (I misspoke the first time when I said corn) a certain chemical if you want it to produce. This is intentional and is just an extra revenue generator, but PZD this revenue generator will decimate us if we use the modified plant. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
timberrattler	5. RE: Genetically Modified Corn - The Bane of Existance Post Z-Day? Jan 14 2012, 8:26 PM EST I doubt that hybrid corn would produce after the second year. Back in the bad old days before they came up with Round-Up ready soybeans you'd get "volunteer" corn growing in your beans when you rotated crops. The ears were pitiful and there were a lot of blank spots on the cob. What I'd do? Buy organic and hybrid corn seed. Hybrid seed will outproduce the organic heirloom stuff. That first year will be rough. Might as well have some good disease resistant hybrid corn to get off to a good start. Soybeans however are different. You can re-plant soybeans again and again and get about the same results. Never forget about all the grain that's in storage. That first year anyone who knows how to process grain into flour and meal will eat well. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
x-wolfhunter	6. RE: Genetically Modified Corn - The Bane of Existance Post Z-Day? Jan 14 2012, 8:32 PM EST "I doubt that hybrid corn would produce after the second year. Back in the bad old days before they came up with Round-Up ready soybeans you'd get "volunteer" corn growing in your beans when you rotated crops. The ears were pitiful and there were a lot of blank spots on the cob. What I'd do? Buy organic and hybrid corn seed. Hybrid seed will outproduce the organic heirloom stuff. That first year will be rough. Might as well have some good disease resistant hybrid corn to get off to a good start. Soybeans however are different. You can re-plant soybeans again and again and get about the same results. Never forget about all the grain that's in storage. That first year anyone who knows how to process grain into flour and meal will eat well." Actually, someone I know managed to get three years out of her hybrid corn before it flopped. And the soybeans that I mentioned require a man-made chemical to be put on it during a certain time frame of their development or it won't produce seeds. So unless you can make this chemical (Which you can't), the disease-resistant mass-producing super soybeans are useless. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
timberrattler	7. RE: Genetically Modified Corn - The Bane of Existance Post Z-Day? Jan 14 2012, 8:46 PM EST "Actually, someone I know managed to get three years out of her hybrid corn before it flopped. And the soybeans that I mentioned require a man-made chemical to be put on it during a certain time frame of their development or it won't produce seeds. So unless you can make this chemical (Which you can't), the disease-resistant mass-producing super soybeans are useless." I'm not following you on the chemical you "have" to put on soybeans. Round-Up ready soybeans are simply soybeans that will not die when Round-Up is sprayed on them. When they're about knee the whole field is sprayed and the beans survive while every other kind of vegetation dies. For a guy who used to walk over acres of soybeans with a hoe to chop down the weeds that the old chemicals didn't get I think its a pretty sweet invention. It was a real boon to how many bushels of beans you could grow on a single acre. I'm lost on the man-made chemical you have to spray to get soybeans to germinate. Never heard of it. Doesn't make sense to me but I've not been involved in large-scale farming for several years. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
FrankLeeDeRainged	8. RE: Genetically Modified Corn - The Bane of Existance Post Z-Day? Jan 14 2012, 9:10 PM EST \| Post edited: Jan 14 2012, 9:11 PM EST This is one of those topics that while significant is also misleading. GM crops will almost certainly turn round and bite us on the as$, Just like all the other various forced production agriculture that feeds (or overfeeds) the western world. And misleading because folk get all exited about it and forget just how hard we are pushing the rest! What do you suppose will happen to the land that is kept productive by artesian irrigation when the power goes out? Or the former wetland that is made productive by constant maintenance of hundreds of miles of ditches and canals? And lets not forget the intensively farmed land that is pretty much kept productive with organo-phosphates and fishmeal vacuumed off the seabed, that's hundreds of square miles that will just dry up and blow away the second we stop? Being as how the UK has been unable to feed itself since sometime before the second world war the country has developed some of the most advanced agriculture in the world (along with the Netherlands, another tiny crowded country) This has led to breakthroughs like cloned sheep and disasters like BSE which brings us to what has turned up today; http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/01/new-animal-virus/ So here we go again. . . Sure be concerned about GM but don't lose sight of the big picture. _ Post reply Do you find this valuable?
redcomrad	9. RE: Genetically Modified Corn - The Bane of Existance Post Z-Day? Jan 15 2012, 2:02 AM EST I thought one of the main reasons why farmers lose their soil productivity is because they plant the same crop on it over and over eventually making the soil deficient, which will in turn make the plants deficient, which will in turn make the plants lose many of their defenses against pests which is the reason why pesticides are so important but make the food practically toxic. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
timberrattler	10. RE: Genetically Modified Corn - The Bane of Existance Post Z-Day? Jan 15 2012, 5:26 AM EST "I thought one of the main reasons why farmers lose their soil productivity is because they plant the same crop on it over and over eventually making the soil deficient, which will in turn make the plants deficient, which will in turn make the plants lose many of their defenses against pests which is the reason why pesticides are so important but make the food practically toxic." LOL, "practically toxic". Of all the things the public and media stress over they should be looking at our "cheap" food supply. America runs on grain. Everything we eat relys on it. Its why we're so fat. Its easily mass produced and doesn't require the physical labor that fruits and vegetables do. Our grain producing plants are genetically modified Frankenplants that are fed a constant diet of synthetic fertilizer and harsh fungicides, herbisides and pestisides. Don't even get me started on livestock. With all the money we save on food (We do save a lot believe it or not. I think we pay less of our percentage of income on food than any other country.) we can spend more money on the important things in life. Jet skis, video games, iphones, 20" rims...You know the essentials. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
x-wolfhunter	11. RE: Genetically Modified Corn - The Bane of Existance Post Z-Day? Jan 15 2012, 8:35 AM EST \| Post edited: Jan 15 2012, 8:36 AM EST "I'm not following you on the chemical you "have" to put on soybeans. Round-Up ready soybeans are simply soybeans that will not die when Round-Up is sprayed on them. When they're about knee the whole field is sprayed and the beans survive while every other kind of vegetation dies." I'm NOT referring to Round-Up ready soybeans. I'm referring to a type of soybean that requires a timed application of a man-made chemical in order for it to produce seed (Not germinate). Without it, while your plant might seem like it's growing along fine, your soybeans will not bear seeds. Meaning you'll just have to chuck the whole lot of them. On a different note, you know what really makes me loathe Monsanto? They've patented a gene - you heard right, patented a GENE - that they put in some crop to make it "better." You are charged every time you use a plant with "their" gene in it. Well, you know how the whole mating process works; the parents pass their genes to the offspring. So neighboring farmers suddenly have crops with this new gene that they never intended to have; they've never even heard of Monsanto before. And guess what? Monsanto knows this, and they send their "private investigators" over to the neighboring farms of those who bought their "new gene" and test the crops for "their" gene. And guess what? The farmers who've never used, bought, or in some cases even heard of this new gene have to pay for it all of a sudden. This went to the supreme court, and guess who won because they have plants in the FDA? Monsanto. So now they can charge people for literally doing nothing. Doesn't that just make you want punt kittens? Post reply Do you find this valuable?
Oakspar77777	12. RE: Genetically Modified Corn - The Bane of Existance Post Z-Day? Jan 15 2012, 8:57 AM EST Like TR, I've actually spent some time in the fields in my life, and the GM RR seed from Monsanto is rather sweet stuff. If you would like to pay three to four times more for all of your food, go ahead, but I will stick with cheap food - thank you very much. GM is no different than selective breeding except that it is a lot faster. Your cute little Yorkie used to be a wolf, and corn used to be a lot smaller (and still required massive amounts of fertilizer - poop, dead fish, etc). Changing the genetic code does not make something evil. Monsanto is a company, and some of the things they have done to make money are pretty low - but most of the time it is things like suing farmers who try to replant seed instead of buying new. That is theft, as the farmer agreed to not do that when they bought the seed - much like you agree to not duplicate a DVD when you buy one. Now, for post apocalypse scenarios, I suggest a two fold plan. First, keep hybrid seed around. Even though you generally only get one good generation out of hybrid seed, the extra yield is worth it for the first year or two. Also, keep some heirloom seed around for long term survival for the years to come. Realize that some crops are naturally heirloom (most members of the squash family, including zucs, squashes, pumpkins, and the like). Others, like tomatoes, will volunteer and produce decently even after the hybrid year. If you are worried about inbreeding, you don't have to plant more than one type (not including fruit trees, many of which require a cross pollinator), you just have to plant more than one plant. If you have 20 heirloom tomato plants of the same type, they will cross pollinate just fine. Be sure to save seed from several different plants, and the next generation will not be siblings, but half-siblings and cousins - more than diverse enough for a plant. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
IrishHitman	13. RE: Genetically Modified Corn - The Bane of Existance Post Z-Day? Jan 15 2012, 9:08 AM EST "Monsanto is a company, and some of the things they have done to make money are pretty low - but most of the time it is things like suing farmers who try to replant seed instead of buying new. That is theft, as the farmer agreed to not do that when they bought the seed - much like you agree to not duplicate a DVD when you buy one." Theft? Theft for replanting something that grew in your ground? Breach of contract, maybe, but it's hardly theft. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
FrankLeeDeRainged	14. RE: Genetically Modified Corn - The Bane of Existance Post Z-Day? Jan 15 2012, 9:47 AM EST "If you are worried about inbreeding," there are several concerns to these issues. The first is anything that can kill one of these effectively cloned plants can kill all of them at the same time if its exploiting the common (genetically modified) element, this is extremely imprudent. Next is the whole mono-culture concept which strike gloomy catastrophists like me as absurdly imprudent to the point of utter recklessness. So GM seems less of 'the next step' as potentially the last one. However as I suggested earlier the havoc we are generating among the plants (and yes timber, the animals too) is not as dangerous as running flat-out or red-lining vast tracts of our best growing land as if its an old car we can trade in when its thrashed. _ Post reply Do you find this valuable?
Markthegenius	15. RE: Genetically Modified Corn - The Bane of Existance Post Z-Day? Jan 15 2012, 10:07 AM EST "Theft? Theft for replanting something that grew in your ground? Breach of contract, maybe, but it's hardly theft." Technically, It could be theft when it was harvested, depending on the terms of the contract. But I agree that breach of contract would be the more obvious, and in my book, more morally reasonable. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
x-wolfhunter	16. RE: Genetically Modified Corn - The Bane of Existance Post Z-Day? Jan 15 2012, 10:50 AM EST @Oakspar77777: I'm not going to plant the expensive organic stuff until it is the only stuff you can plant. I wasn't suggesting this Pre-ZD. I was suggesting this PZD, when it'll be the only stuff you can grow that'll last. I wasn't suggesting that changing genetic code is evil, I was suggesting that the people who did were. Also, we have literally no idea of the long-term effects of our effing with nature; there's a reason stuff is the way it is. The CD analogy doesn't work, by the way. It's a bit different. Anyway, the "pretty low" suing of farmers who replant seeds is nothing compared to the theft that they themselves exhibited on the farmers that I detailed in my last post. I agree with your PZD seed plan, but it's been discussed already in this thread; Timber said it a while back. I wasn't worried about inbreeding; if you read my post, you'll see that I was saying that hybrid plants are inbred and that's why they only last a year or so. I hate to re-post links, but here it is again anyway: http://www.livinghistoryfarm.org/farminginthe30s/crops_03.html @IrishHitman: I agree with that. The farmers weren't stealing. They were planting seeds they harvested. Somewhere in invisible ink, I'm sure, there's something about that in the contract that you for some reason must sign when buying seeds from Monsanto, but you should be able to replant seeds (Inadvisable with hybrid seeds, as I've said before) that you harvest yourself. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
x-wolfhunter	17. RE: Genetically Modified Corn - The Bane of Existance Post Z-Day? Jan 15 2012, 11:58 AM EST Just made a page about this. http://www.zombiesurvivalwiki.com/page/Genetically+Modified+Corn+-+The+Bane+of+Self-Sufficiency%3F Post reply Do you find this valuable?
x-wolfhunter	18. RE: Genetically Modified Corn - The Bane of Existance Post Z-Day? Jan 15 2012, 3:16 PM EST Hey, Timber (Or any other Mod), could you move this thread to the page, please? Post reply Do you find this valuable?
Oakspar77777	19. RE: Genetically Modified Corn - The Bane of Existance Post Z-Day? Jan 15 2012, 9:59 PM EST Actually, the CD or DVD analogy is perfect. I buy the disk. I own the disk. I do not own the movie/music on it. I cannot play it on my radio station, put it on my TV channel, present it in my movie theater - I can only use it for the purpose I licenced it for: personal intertainment. Irish Hitman seemed offended that someone could be arrested for replanting what grew from his land, but just because I own the copy machine and the blank disks does not mean I own any property I copy onto them. Monsanto owns RR crops (Bayer has a similar glyphten uptake line as well). When a farmer buys their seed he is agreeing to a licence that includes not propegating the crop into future generations. This assures that the farmer will return to Monsanto to buy fresh seed each year and protects Monsanto's intellectual property. Any farmer who does not like this has the option of never planting Monsanto or Bayer seed. The difference in cost and yeild, however, are signifigant enough that they would likely be unable to compete. Note that they would be unable to compete with someone who is going back to buy fresh seed each year - proveing that the cost of the seed is within market levels. (Also, most farmers were already buying fresh seed each year, as performance crops have been hybrids for years). As for the long term consequences of GM crops, most of the fears are overblown. As food, it cannot be a risk, your body does not incorporate the DNA of your food - it digest it. For the environment, it is unlikely to become a persistant threat, as herbacide resistance is not a wild advantage and bug/fungus/disease resistance only last a few generation until parasites adapt. One more note - organic seed and heirloom gardening are not that much more exspensive, just more labor intensive to be organic and space intensive to be heirloom. I do grow some organic crops, some heirloom, some hybrid, and some with fertilizer and pesticides. Post reply Do you find this valuable?

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