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White76Knight |
On Defensive Handgun Calibers
Feb 7 2012, 4:03 AM EST
It has oft been debated, on this site and others, what the "best" caliber is for a defensive handgun round. We hear terms like 'stopping power' and 'kinetic energy' and 'harmonic pulse frequency'...LOL - Okay, maybe not that last one. Seriously though, I just came across an interesting article that pretty much lays it out. To put it simply, unless you hit the brain or upper spinal column, there is NOT ONE single caliber that can be relied on to instantly incapacitate an assailant. Shots to center mass may incapacitate, may even kill, but it has been shown that even in cases where the heart has been destroyed, there is still enough oxygen in the brain for an assailant to continue to act for 10-15 seconds. Fortunately for us, most people have a proclivity towards falling down when shot, no matter what you shoot them with or where you hit them, most people will instinctively fall down upon realizing that they've been shot, but what are the key words there? MOST PEOPLE. First of all, the target has to be aware that he's been shot, and second of all he has to be one of those people with that standard proclivity towards falling down. No matter whether you hit them with a .22 or a .45, some people will be so enraged, drugged out, or just numb from the shock of getting shot in the first place, that they will fail to notice that they've been wounded, even mortally wounded. Or for the same reasons, they may realize that they've been wounded, but just not give a sh!t, determined to take you down with them even if they die trying. Now statistically, it doesn't seem to matter whether you use a sissy round like a .22 rimfire, or a big old ass kicker like a .45 ACP, the reliable one shot drop is a myth perpetuated by hollywood that cannot be relied upon in real life. (Cont'd) 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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White76Knight |
1. RE: On Defensive Handgun Calibers
Feb 7 2012, 4:04 AM EST
In any case, for those who are interested in reading the whole article, which by the way was compiled by the US Department of Justice for the FBI Firearms Training Unit, it can be found here (PDF Document):http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf Enjoy! Do you find this valuable? |
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Filadog |
2. RE: On Defensive Handgun Calibers
Feb 7 2012, 6:07 AM EST
I like the 32 ACP.....Light weight, guns are normaly smaller, less recoil then something like a 45 or 357 mag while only marginally less effective.....Hey if you can't hit what you are aiming at because of the recoil or are afraid to shoot it what good is some big cartridge ?...My girlfriend shoots a .22 short Beretta and it would kill you just as dead as a .45Nahh... I just made that up, Couldn't help myself just funning with those 20 ga. guys : ) I think beside the caliber it is important to think about what bullet you are shooting. A 9mm FMJ makes for a rather poor defensive load I think but move up to a good hollow point things get better, move up to a +P load and things get much better. A .45 or 357 mag is probably more effective but to me the more ammo that my 9mm holds makes up for a slightly [ when loaded with HP] , thatl ess effective caliber 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
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John_234 |
3. RE: On Defensive Handgun Calibers
Feb 7 2012, 6:07 AM EST
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htmhttp://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_4_34/ai_n56222291/ http://concealedcarryholsters.org/wp-content/files/FBI-Analysis-on-PA-Police-Shootout.pdf (NSFW Gore) I think it's been pretty established that shot placement is everything. That said... a larger caliber is certainly not something I'd mind having. By the way, have you perused the Marshall statistics on shootings? It has some interesting information on "one shot stops," the top round being 125 grn .357 Magnum, with .45 ACP and 9mm Parabellum following close behind. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Sharpie41 |
4. RE: On Defensive Handgun Calibers
Feb 7 2012, 9:28 AM EST
After shtf, the only centrefire calibre (handgun) I have is a 9mm, currently the only ammo I have is FMJ, I think it would have enough force to kill
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White76Knight |
5. RE: On Defensive Handgun Calibers
Feb 7 2012, 1:58 PM EST
"I think beside the caliber it is important to think about what bullet you are shooting. A 9mm FMJ makes for a rather poor defensive load I think but move up to a good hollow point things get better, move up to a +P load and things get much better.I agree. If I were carrying a defensive firearm (if I were allowed to CCW in Canada at all, that is), I would pay a lot of attention to what sort of ammo I was feeding it. This is especially so if I were carrying one of the smaller caliber handguns in order to take advantage of greater ammunition capacity. I just watched a program on TV last night, actually, that demonstrated on water jugs the difference between a couple of standard loads and a couple of "defensive" loads fired out of the same guns. I've also seen similar demonstrations conducted with ballistic gel with similar results. The difference is dramatic, to say the least. Do you find this valuable? |
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Som+ |
6. RE: On Defensive Handgun Calibers
Feb 7 2012, 4:08 PM EST
Like timeshares, it's all about location, location, location.After that, it's just the round that you can place evenly and think will do the job. I don't really have too much of a preference as of late. Do you find this valuable? |
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Sharpie41 |
7. RE: On Defensive Handgun Calibers
Feb 7 2012, 4:14 PM EST
"I agree. If I were carrying a defensive firearm (if I were allowed to CCW in Canada at all, that is), I would pay a lot of attention to what sort of ammo I was feeding it. This is especially so if I were carrying one of the smaller caliber handguns in order to take advantage of greater ammunition capacity.What show? Do you find this valuable? |
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White76Knight |
8. RE: On Defensive Handgun Calibers
Feb 7 2012, 5:28 PM EST
"What show?"Gun Talk TV on the Wild TV Network. You can also watch all the episodes online at www.GunTalkTV.com Do you find this valuable? |
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John_234 |
9. RE: On Defensive Handgun Calibers
Feb 7 2012, 6:32 PM EST
Speaking of water jugs, very well known site on bullet tests: http://www.theboxotruth.com/
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Sharpie41 |
10. RE: On Defensive Handgun Calibers
Feb 7 2012, 6:35 PM EST
"Gun Talk TV on the Wild TV Network. You can also watch all the episodes online at www.GunTalkTV.com"Sweet, i'll have to take a look at that Do you find this valuable? |
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timberrattler |
11. RE: On Defensive Handgun Calibers
Feb 7 2012, 7:18 PM EST
.45acp and .357 mag. Those are two of the most common "man-stoppers" IMO.All and all most handgun calibers are rather weak when compared to rifles and shotguns. Do you find this valuable? |
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TreeLegs |
12. RE: On Defensive Handgun Calibers
Feb 7 2012, 7:24 PM EST
"I like the 32 ACP.....Light weight, guns are normaly smaller, less recoil then something like a 45 or 357 mag while only marginally less effective.....Hey if you can't hit what you are aiming at because of the recoil or are afraid to shoot it what good is some big cartridge ?...My girlfriend shoots a .22 short Beretta and it would kill you just as dead as a .45Yeah, yeah I hear ya Fila lol. Look I'm all about some small calibers, but even I;d have to say no to a .22 short. All fatal shots are based on shot placement first and foremost. The size of the caliber just helps your chances of bringing your target down. I try to skip the whole JHP vs FMJ conversation usually as I believe your skill with the weapon is what is going to matter 90% of time. I usually just use FMJ rounds. If its good enough for the military, it cant be too bad for me. Pick something shoot well with and something that suits you. Personally, I prefer .22's, anything in the .380 catagory(.38 special, 9mm, .357's), .44 special and the .454 Casul(just in case I need to stop a car or an elephant lol). Word of warning here...DO NOT USE +P ANYTHING IN A FIREARM NOT RATED FOR +P. It will probably explode and ruin your firearm and your life. As a matter of fact, it wouldn't be a bad idea to buy weapons rated for +P, just in case you run across the ammo scavaging. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Oakspar77777 |
13. RE: On Defensive Handgun Calibers
Feb 7 2012, 7:27 PM EST
Nerve damage, blood loss, bone/muscle trama, pain - in that order - create stopping power.Shot placement does most of that for you. So long as there is no penetration, most handgun rounds work out the same kinetically (small rounds with more velocity verses heavier rounds moving slower). Thus, IMO bullet type is the real determinate. A bullet that maximizes trauma, tissue damage, and blood loss would be key. Thus, hollow or soft points will do more than FMJs. I am a fan of deep hollow points. Do you find this valuable? |
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TreeLegs |
14. RE: On Defensive Handgun Calibers
Feb 7 2012, 9:55 PM EST
"Nerve damage, blood loss, bone/muscle trama, pain - in that order - create stopping power.Like them to, but be warry of the non-bonded rounds. The copper jacket can peel away from the lead, causing it to loose effectiveness. Also, shooting through clothing and such can plug the HP causing a failure to expand properly. Of course this is dependent on a few factors. Its best to test the reliability of your weapon feeding HP rounds. Sometimes the feed ramp can get caught on the lip of it and cause a failure. My cousin had to grind his down and re-blue one on his pistol(not going to bad mouth a name brand). Just a minor fix really. Now it feeds all HPs fine. SP rounds is a good compromise in my opinion. Feed reliability, penetration and expansion. Last thing, make sure you test all the rounds you plan on shooting through your weapon. Some rounds and brands are more accurate than others. Do you find this valuable? |
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problomatic |
15. RE: On Defensive Handgun Calibers
Feb 7 2012, 10:57 PM EST
You do realise that militaries use fmj because of stupidity and the hague convention, right? That is probably one of the stupidest things the military does. Hollow points are prefered by hunters because they kill better than fmj. In fact, the only bullets you can find in fmj are target bullets and match grade. My berger BT long range are fmj and it says right on the box "Not Suitable For Hunting" thats why I also have SST's
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Sharpie41 |
16. RE: On Defensive Handgun Calibers
Feb 7 2012, 11:15 PM EST
"You do realise that militaries use fmj because of stupidity and the hague convention, right? That is probably one of the stupidest things the military does. Hollow points are prefered by hunters because they kill better than fmj. In fact, the only bullets you can find in fmj are target bullets and match grade. My berger BT long range are fmj and it says right on the box "Not Suitable For Hunting" thats why I also have SST's"It's because HP wounds are harder to treat, same reason why the triangular profile trench knife was banned Do you find this valuable? |
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White76Knight |
17. RE: On Defensive Handgun Calibers
Feb 7 2012, 11:35 PM EST
".45acp and .357 mag. Those are two of the most common "man-stoppers" IMO.But that's just the thing; according to this article, even these rounds are NOT man stoppers. Neither a .45ACP nor a .357Mag will reliably stop anyone if those shots do not hit in the right location in the first place, and the ONLY locations that are guaranteed do that in a "one shot drop" context are the brain and upper spinal column. From the article, "Absent that, incapacitation is subject to a host of variables, the most important of which are beyond the control of the shooter." So a hit anywhere else MAY drop an assailant where they stand, or it may cause them to fall down and bleed out a few seconds, minutes or even hours later, long after they've had time to do you in as well. @ Oakspar - As for HP vs SP vs FMJ vs Whatever, the article also says that, "In no case should selection of a bullet be made where expansion is necessary to achieve desired performance. Handgun bullets expand in a human target only 60-70% of the time at best." It goes on to describe how a whole host of variables can act to prevent expansion, from intervening obstacles like glass or the targets clothing, to striking bone, to insufficient velocity at the moment of impact, to simple manufacturing variations. It then says, "Expansion must never be the basis for bullet selection, but considered a bonus when, and if, it occurs. Bullet selection should be based on penetration first, and the unexpanded diameter of the bullet second, as that is all a shooter can reliably expect." You are correct that shot placement does most of what you need done, but you cannot rely on expansion to accomplish what shot placement did not. Do you find this valuable? |
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White76Knight |
18. RE: On Defensive Handgun Calibers
Feb 7 2012, 11:41 PM EST
"It's because HP wounds are harder to treat, same reason why the triangular profile trench knife was banned"But if not for the various treaties and conventions, that would be a GOOD thing. If I were a soldier, and I were placed in a situation where I have to fire on an enemy combatant, then I'd want to be using bullets that are capable of doing as much damage as possible. Whether or not they'd be harder to treat later would hopefully be irrelevant, because the more damage they do, the more likely that the patient will be beyond treating and thus unable to attack me or my fellow soldiers at any point in the future. Do you find this valuable? |
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Sharpie41 |
19. RE: On Defensive Handgun Calibers
Feb 8 2012, 12:01 AM EST
"But if not for the various treaties and conventions, that would be a GOOD thing. If I were a soldier, and I were placed in a situation where I have to fire on an enemy combatant, then I'd want to be using bullets that are capable of doing as much damage as possible.Exactly, he was *****!ng about the military for using them, I explained why Do you find this valuable? |