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Discussion: Cooperation? I think not!

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Som+	Cooperation? I think not! Feb 8 2012, 7:30 PM EST \| Post edited: Feb 8 2012, 7:30 PM EST After talking to Mars during the law lecture, I realised that no one really likes to cooperate. Say you establish some sort of counsel of sorts, or maybe a leader over a whole community. Now wait a second. What does this change? Have your neighbors ever really helped you? How well do you know them? Will they help you now? Would you help them? Point is, even if you can establish a leadership, unless it's some sort of colony style(which doesn't come up until much later), you're going to have run-of-the-mill blocks just banning together, and they're certainly not going to want to help Bob there who's starving because he lucked out and it was his grocery day when SHTF. So how do you solve this "every man for himself" mindset and actually get true cooperation? Post reply 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you? Keyword tags: None
TreeLegs	1. RE: Cooperation? I think not! Feb 8 2012, 8:23 PM EST \| Post edited: Feb 8 2012, 8:25 PM EST I believe that human beings are generally more compassionate towards suffering. Some more than others. Bob may have been caught with his pants down, but at this point you either live as a team or die as one. Leaving Bob to starve means that people have to ignore the suffering they see and become heartless. This will unravel the group over time as they will stop trying to help each other to survive and it could devolve into killing one another for supplies. The group needs a strong leader. It may not be the guy with the most guns or the biggest house, but just the guy with conviction and common sense. It doesn't matter if you are mad at Bob because he never returned your wrench set. What matters is if he is an active participant in the survival of the group. The group leader is like a boss at a job. He guides the team towards a common goal and helps everyone to get along even if everyone has never met before. He can't please everyone and people will have to learn to compromise or walk away. In a survival situation where you may haphazardly become part of a group, you are going to have to learn to be wary but trust strangers. Groups will survive longer than individuals because you have more minds to solve problems and more hands to put that solution into practice. There was a show called the Colony I believe that focused on a group of people surviving in a urban setting. A welder, computer scientist, ex soldier, cook, hunter and a carpenter who never met one another were thrown together an told to survive. The computer scientist rigged a system to use ozone from an electric spark to purify water. The welder fabricated it while the ex soldier and the hunter found a pig corpse and used the fat to make gasoline for the generator. The carpenter repaired the roof of the building while the cook used rats and herbs collected by the others to make food for everyone. I doubt an individual be as successful. Post reply 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
Carnack	2. RE: Cooperation? I think not! Feb 8 2012, 11:10 PM EST \| Post edited: Feb 8 2012, 11:12 PM EST Bob may have food but the second something mechanical of his breaks down oops he ain't a mechanic. Bob may have food but the second someone dangerous shows up he better hope they are crappy shots because oops he's a business owner not LEO/military guy. Bob may have food but it's perishable and oops he ain't a farmer. Bob may have food but damn it he just sliced his arm and oops he's no doctor. But David is a mechanic. Joe served in the military. Horace is a farmer. And Marissa is a doctor. Alone each sports massive gaps in their knowledge but together they cover a lot of their mental gaps. That is why unity wins out over division. Because alone we cannot possibly know every single skill to prolong our survival but together we stand a better chance and each will benefit from the knowledge of others. Or just the addition of another back to bear the workload. Post reply 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
TreeLegs	3. RE: Cooperation? I think not! Feb 8 2012, 11:41 PM EST So... Horace hits the fields. David keeps the machines working. Joe takes care of security and weapons. Marissa keeps everone healthy Bob keeps the supply numbers and general organization. ...and that way everyone has a purpose and everyone having a purpose gives you unity. Unless... David has a crush on Marissa. Joe has a crush on Marissa. Marissa has a crush on David. Bob thinks Horace could be more effecient. Horace thinks Bob doesn't know what hard work is. ...then again, there are trade offs for everything. Hopefully Bob and the gang run into a therapist soon lol. Post reply 1 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
Sharpie41	4. RE: Cooperation? I think not! Feb 9 2012, 12:36 AM EST "So... Horace hits the fields. David keeps the machines working. Joe takes care of security and weapons. Marissa keeps everone healthy Bob keeps the supply numbers and general organization. ...and that way everyone has a purpose and everyone having a purpose gives you unity. Unless... David has a crush on Marissa. Joe has a crush on Marissa. Marissa has a crush on David. Bob thinks Horace could be more effecient. Horace thinks Bob doesn't know what hard work is. ...then again, there are trade offs for everything. Hopefully Bob and the gang run into a therapist soon lol." HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA God that's funny. I think people are more compassionate than you give them credit, I think people would band together and, if not get along, at least tolerate each other Post reply 0 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
John_234	5. RE: Cooperation? I think not! Feb 9 2012, 12:42 AM EST "After talking to Mars during the law lecture, I realised that no one really likes to cooperate. Say you establish some sort of counsel of sorts, or maybe a leader over a whole community. Now wait a second. What does this change? Have your neighbors ever really helped you? How well do you know them? Will they help you now? Would you help them? Point is, even if you can establish a leadership, unless it's some sort of colony style(which doesn't come up until much later), you're going to have run-of-the-mill blocks just banning together, and they're certainly not going to want to help Bob there who's starving because he lucked out and it was his grocery day when SHTF. So how do you solve this "every man for himself" mindset and actually get true cooperation?" Personally, the only thing I noticed during Marsden's law lecture was that everybody is apparently a fan of totalitarian governments. Post reply 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
TreeLegs	6. RE: Cooperation? I think not! Feb 9 2012, 12:54 AM EST "Personally, the only thing I noticed during Marsden's law lecture was that everybody is apparently a fan of totalitarian governments." Really? That's kind of shocking to me seeing that we enjoy freedoms that no totalitarian regime would ever give it's citizens. One of the things I have in my BOB one of those pocket Constitution books. If I manage to gather a settlement large enough, I want to be able to set something up very similar to it's contents. @Sharpie, Your're telling me you didn't see that coming lol? Post reply 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
Uzzgub	7. RE: Cooperation? I think not! Feb 9 2012, 12:17 PM EST "Personally, the only thing I noticed during Marsden's law lecture was that everybody is apparently a fan of totalitarian governments." Don't surprise me at all as councils, senates and parliaments don't work as they take to long to decide anything and you will never get agreement on anything as people cant agree on what to have for dinner, let alone how they will deal with problems, and if you have to many strong personality's in the colony then councils will break apart as people wont change there stand points. at least with a 'tyrant' a decision will be made (for better or worse) and a course of action would be decided and things would get done. Post reply 0 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
TreeLegs	8. RE: Cooperation? I think not! Feb 10 2012, 12:55 PM EST "Don't surprise me at all as councils, senates and parliaments don't work as they take to long to decide anything and you will never get agreement on anything as people cant agree on what to have for dinner, let alone how they will deal with problems, and if you have to many strong personality's in the colony then councils will break apart as people wont change there stand points. at least with a 'tyrant' a decision will be made (for better or worse) and a course of action would be decided and things would get done." But then the colony is dependent on the will of one man. That person couldn't possibly run it unless he is either loved or feared. Since I believe not many people will go to the lengths it will take or have the skill to be a loved leader, they will lean towards fear which means in time, his rule will not last. Consolidating power in this manner is what has taken a country that has only been around for a fraction of what others have been and made it a super power. I could see how a single man running a small colony would work, but once it gets too large, councles and other groups similar will be neccisary. Post reply 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
problomatic	9. RE: Cooperation? I think not! Feb 10 2012, 1:04 PM EST Democracy is based on the assumption that a million men are wiser than one man. How’s that again? I missed something. Autocracy is based on the assumption that one man is wiser than a million men. Let’s play that over again, too. Who decides? Any government will work if authority and responsibility are equal and coordinate. This does not insure “good” government; it simply insures that it will work. But such governments are rare--most people want to run things but want no part of the blame. This used to be called the “backseat-driver syndrome.” A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects! All quotes are from Robert Heinlein. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
problomatic	10. RE: Cooperation? I think not! Feb 10 2012, 1:06 PM EST "But then the colony is dependent on the will of one man. That person couldn't possibly run it unless he is either loved or feared. Since I believe not many people will go to the lengths it will take or have the skill to be a loved leader, they will lean towards fear which means in time, his rule will not last. Consolidating power in this manner is what has taken a country that has only been around for a fraction of what others have been and made it a super power. I could see how a single man running a small colony would work, but once it gets too large, councles and other groups similar will be neccisary. " Or respect. You neather have to love or fear someone to respect them. Post reply 0 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
Frag-12	11. RE: Cooperation? I think not! Feb 10 2012, 1:07 PM EST \| Post edited: Feb 10 2012, 1:08 PM EST I think the real problem is not cooperation but compromising to other one's views, and generalizations. This is why some survivalist state find like minded people to be part of your survival group (community) because it makes an already f***ed up life easier. And it is not only a problem in the US, from my observation, it is a problem across the globe. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
Carnack	12. RE: Cooperation? I think not! Feb 10 2012, 1:23 PM EST "Personally, the only thing I noticed during Marsden's law lecture was that everybody is apparently a fan of totalitarian governments." Hey now. I wasn't in on that. :O Plus I didn't kill Aeries like you did so there! Post reply 1 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
Carnack	13. RE: Cooperation? I think not! Feb 10 2012, 1:34 PM EST \| Post edited: Feb 10 2012, 1:38 PM EST "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects!" Hienlein was speaking against communism with his books. While in a general sense the statement is true the problem is that he was creating an antithesis to communism which was knowing how to do everything. However much like John Galt in Atlas Shrugged the characters in Hienlien's books were less accurate representations of humans and more the embodiment of his viewpoint and ideals. The flaw is that not everyone can learn everything that will aid in their survival. Not unless you want to devote your time to being a full-time 'student" and even then by the time you "finish" tech will have changed and given you more crap to learn. It's a fun slogan but specialization to a degree is the difference between a so-so practicioner of the trade and a fantastic practicioner of the trade. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
problomatic	14. RE: Cooperation? I think not! Feb 10 2012, 1:58 PM EST \| Post edited: Feb 10 2012, 2:03 PM EST Who needs fantastic arrows, as long as you can make arrows? Who needs a mansion as long as you have shelter? Who needs a neuro surgeon when you have to stop bleeding on an arm? I'd prefer to be a "jack of all trades, master of none" over a one trick pony. Even if that pony is REALLY REALLY good at that one trick. But I've never played well with others anyway. But my quotes were simply in response to the dictator/republic comments and the bob scenario. Not to be taken as world views. They were written by a nudist fiction writer, after all. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
Frag-12	15. RE: Cooperation? I think not! Feb 10 2012, 2:06 PM EST \| Post edited: Feb 10 2012, 2:08 PM EST Nothing wrong with being a jack of all trades but you should specialize in one area. Most of the hardcore survivalist agree with this model. I am even like this in the computer industry. I can hold my own in computer hardware, routing, and switching, but I prefer Network security. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
Carnack	16. RE: Cooperation? I think not! Feb 10 2012, 2:11 PM EST Who can use a shelter when you need a large dwelling for 30+ people? Arrows have a level of physics involved that require a level of expertise to get right. So-so arrows may not fly straight, and may not be capable of accurate fire. You can get away with that with bullets but arrows have more to them than just a sharpened stick with feathering. Who can use a guy who can only set bones when you need a fully trained medical doctor who can set bones, diagnose illnesses, sew up a wound, remove gangrenous flesh, and just maintain the general health of the group? The lone wolf is a victim of fortune and circumstances. One wrong wind and the mighty lone wolf is bleeding alone in the dark night. Go alone if you want but the benefit of trained personelle is an undeniable advantage. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
zombie0human156	17. RE: Cooperation? I think not! Feb 10 2012, 2:35 PM EST "But then the colony is dependent on the will of one man. That person couldn't possibly run it unless he is either loved or feared. Since I believe not many people will go to the lengths it will take or have the skill to be a loved leader, they will lean towards fear which means in time, his rule will not last. Consolidating power in this manner is what has taken a country that has only been around for a fraction of what others have been and made it a super power. I could see how a single man running a small colony would work, but once it gets too large, councles and other groups similar will be neccisary. " it is better to be loved than fear. for a man who is feared is hated. If you capture the peoples hearts you capture their loyalty. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
problomatic	18. RE: Cooperation? I think not! Feb 10 2012, 3:47 PM EST "Who can use a shelter when you need a large dwelling for 30+ people? Arrows have a level of physics involved that require a level of expertise to get right. So-so arrows may not fly straight, and may not be capable of accurate fire. You can get away with that with bullets but arrows have more to them than just a sharpened stick with feathering. Who can use a guy who can only set bones when you need a fully trained medical doctor who can set bones, diagnose illnesses, sew up a wound, remove gangrenous flesh, and just maintain the general health of the group? The lone wolf is a victim of fortune and circumstances. One wrong wind and the mighty lone wolf is bleeding alone in the dark night. Go alone if you want but the benefit of trained personelle is an undeniable advantage." If they could take care of themselves then they could build their own shelter, make their own arrows, and treat their own wounds. But I never said lone wolf. I said jack of all trades. I'd rather 5 people who could do all well, maybe not experts over 5 "experts" in any field. Oh, and you don't learn by going to school, you learn by doing. All the cook books in the world won't help someone who's never touched a frying pan. And a survival arrow shot from a survival bow IS just a straight stick with some fletching on the back. If it kills, it kills, the dead deer doesn't care if tom brown jr or billy joe buckwheat made it. Its so easy, a cave man could (and did) do it. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
Carnack	19. RE: Cooperation? I think not! Feb 10 2012, 4:10 PM EST \| Post edited: Feb 10 2012, 4:51 PM EST Cool so if you ever need a transplant you wouldn't mind if the surgeon mentioned that he was brand new? Hey learn by doing right? Meanwhile back on terra firma we realize that medical journals were written by those who have done it and they pass the knowledge onto those who haven;t so that when they do there are as few surprises as possible. Yes experience matters but experience is limited to you. Medical journals compile the experiences of hundreds of doctors who have in fact experienced more than the student. No profession in the world exists without people who know it teaching those who don't. Not One. Re Arrows. In order to be accurate, an arrow must have the correct stiffness, or spine, to flex out of the way of the bow and return back to the correct path as it leaves the bow. Incorrect spine results in unpredictable contact between the arrow and the bow, therefore unpredictable forces on the arrow as it leaves the bow, and therefore reduced accuracy. It's not just a stick. There are physics involved that our ancestors learned over time to perfect. Make no mistake Problomatic. Just because our ancestors did it does not mean it was simple. They were not stupid. Hell we haven't even figured out Greek Fire yet. That's not to say that it's a lifetime endeavor but in many things specialized knowledge wins out big over some basic skills. Post reply Do you find this valuable?

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