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White76Knight |
60. RE: Brothel Trap
Feb 15 2012, 1:44 PM EST
"Being forced to have sex with people you don't want to for money, and being forced to have sex with people you don't want to because they'll hurt you, I don't see the difference. You're still being forced to have sex by whatever circumstance you find yourself in...I'm sorry Irish, but I'm gonna have to call bullsh!t in return. A prostitute who is voluntarily having sex for money is not being forced. As long as she has the option to get up and walk out WITHOUT the money, then she's a consenting participant. I don't care how badly she needs the money, I don't care whether she'll go hungry without it, I don't care whether she WANTS to be a ***** or not. As long as she has the option, one way or the other, and despite and hardship real or perceived, she DOES have the option, then it ain't rape. And don't accuse me of being condescending just because I don't agree with you. I don't care whether you're a law student, the truth is that the law doesn't recognize prostitution as rape and as a law student I'm sure you know that. I wasn't trying to say that this is a legal issue, I was trying to make a comparison. The law recognizes all sorts of things as rape, or at least as sexual assault, even things that you wouldn't automatically expect to be so classified. Prostitution is not one of them. This says that the powers that be recognize the difference between someone being forced and someone doing something by choice. Likewise they recognize the difference between external and internal coercion. One is rape the other isn't, and you insisting otherwise isn't going to change that. Do you find this valuable? |
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White76Knight |
61. RE: Brothel Trap
Feb 15 2012, 1:46 PM EST
"By that logic, a woman who is being raped has a choice, concede to getting raped, or be horribly injured or even killed.Straw Man logic at it's finest. Well done. Do you find this valuable? |
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epic_epicness |
62. RE: Brothel Trap
Feb 15 2012, 1:53 PM EST
"Straw Man logic at it's finest. Well done."by the same logic a woman who wants to have sex is also being raped because you just argued away her right to make that choice. Do you find this valuable? |
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epic_epicness |
63. RE: Brothel Trap
Feb 15 2012, 1:54 PM EST
"by the same logic a woman who wants to have sex is also being raped because you just argued away her right to make that choice."sorry Knight, that was directed at the person you quoted not you. Do you find this valuable? |
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IrishHitman |
64. RE: Brothel Trap
Feb 15 2012, 1:57 PM EST
"And don't accuse me of being condescending just because I don't agree with you. I don't care whether you're a law student, the truth is that the law doesn't recognize prostitution as rape and as a law student I'm sure you know that. I wasn't trying to say that this is a legal issue, I was trying to make a comparison.If you can't understand the concept that coercion means that it isn't a choice, I can't argue with you further. I'm accusing you of being condescending because you said "ask a cop or a lawyer" on the subject of law on rape. Not only is that an irrelevence to the argument, as we're not talking about the law but rather whether it is ethical, but you've also proceeded to lecture someone who's studied criminal law in Ireland and France on the subject. If rape is the act of coerced sex, then prostitution is rape. Not legally speaking, but ethically speaking. Do you find this valuable? |
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IrishHitman |
65. RE: Brothel Trap
Feb 15 2012, 1:58 PM EST
"Straw Man logic at it's finest. Well done."Do you even know what a strawman argument is? I applied the logic you used on my example to your own assertions, that's not a strawman argument at all. Do you find this valuable? |
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epic_epicness |
66. RE: Brothel Trap
Feb 15 2012, 2:17 PM EST
"Do you even know what a strawman argument is?also by the same logic bartering any goods you don't want to sell to pay off debt is ethically stealing. Do you find this valuable? |
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epic_epicness |
67. RE: Brothel Trap
Feb 15 2012, 2:20 PM EST
"also by the same logic bartering any goods you don't want to sell to pay off debt is ethically stealing."my job would also be slavery because I don't want to do it but I have to in order to pay bills. Do you find this valuable? |
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White76Knight |
68. RE: Brothel Trap
Feb 15 2012, 2:22 PM EST
"If rape is the act of coerced sex, then prostitution is rape.I understand the concept just fine, I just think you're wrong. Let me explain it this way. If a woman is starving, and I walk up to her and say I'll give you food or money to buy food if you have sex with me, then that's coercion. But even then, she has the choice of saying no. She could refuse the food, she could refuse them money, and she could seek out some other way to feed herself, so even if she accepts my offer, it may be coercion but it ain't rape. Aside from that, though, if that same woman is starving, and she CHOOSES to go out and have sex for money so that she can buy food, reaching that decision entirely on her own, then it ain't either coercion or rape no matter how you color it. As for me being condescending, I said "ask a cop or a lawyer" before you said that you were a law student, so how could I be condescending based on something that I didn't even know? And besides, whether you've studied law in England, France or Timbuktu, my argument stands. As far as I know, the laws in England and France don't recognize prostitution as rape any more than they do in North America. And most laws are usually nothing more than the codification of ethics, so that is a distinction without a difference. Legally speaking, a woman who CHOOSES to be a prostitute is NOT being raped. Ethically speaking, a woman who CHOOSES to be a prostitute is NOT being raped. Do you find this valuable? |
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Sharpie41 |
69. RE: Brothel Trap
Feb 15 2012, 3:17 PM EST
I just want everyone to know a man was charged with rape no too long ago for continually asking his tenant (he was her landlord) to have sex with him, after saying no many times, she felt he was going to hurt her, so she did.According to Canadian law, they consider that rape, seems to fit this situation, it may not be prostitution but the idea still applies. Do you find this valuable? |
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White76Knight |
70. RE: Brothel Trap
Feb 15 2012, 3:32 PM EST
"I just want everyone to know a man was charged with rape no too long ago for continually asking his tenant (he was her landlord) to have sex with him, after saying no many times, she felt he was going to hurt her, so she did.Yes, because there was coercion or implied coercion involved. He kept coming on to her and she felt threatened. No argument there. Had she been the one coming on to him, however, then she wouldn't have been able to charge him. Likewise, she wouldn't have been able to charge him if he had been coming on to her, and if she had said, entirely of her own volition, "well, he's hot so sure I'll bang him." (Well, she could have lied after the fact and said he forced her, but that could happen in any situation.) Do you find this valuable? |
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epic_epicness |
71. RE: Brothel Trap
Feb 15 2012, 4:20 PM EST
"Yes, because there was coercion or implied coercion involved. He kept coming on to her and she felt threatened. No argument there.I disagree, harassment is not the same and anyone who has ever been raped would agree here. Do you find this valuable? |
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Sharpie41 |
72. RE: Brothel Trap
Feb 15 2012, 4:26 PM EST
"Yes, because there was coercion or implied coercion involved. He kept coming on to her and she felt threatened. No argument there.My point was just because someone says yes doesn't mean there isn't coercion involved Do you find this valuable? |
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Sharpie41 |
73. RE: Brothel Trap
Feb 15 2012, 5:09 PM EST
"I highly doubt people aspire to be prostitutes, choosing prostitution due to a lack of other options isn't a real choice. Whether that's because of poverty, etc.A little trivia, but the "traditional" meaning of "rape" was actually to kidnap, look up "Rape of the Sabine women" and read about it, I think that's when the definition changed Do you find this valuable? |
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epic_epicness |
74. RE: Brothel Trap
Feb 15 2012, 5:28 PM EST
"My point was just because someone says yes doesn't mean there isn't coercion involved"I think you guys need to look up the meaning of coercion. Do you find this valuable? |
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epic_epicness |
75. RE: Brothel Trap
Feb 15 2012, 5:31 PM EST
"A little trivia, but the "traditional" meaning of "rape" was actually to kidnap, look up "Rape of the Sabine women" and read about it, I think that's when the definition changed"rape is slang, the actual charge in most states (in the U.S.) is criminal sexual penetration. Do you find this valuable? |
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White76Knight |
76. RE: Brothel Trap
Feb 15 2012, 5:44 PM EST
| Post edited: Feb 15 2012, 5:49 PM EST
"I disagree, harassment is not the same and anyone who has ever been raped would agree here."The implied coercion was not in the harassment, but in that she feared physical harm, if that's what you were referring to. Do you find this valuable? |
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Carnack |
77. RE: Brothel Trap
Feb 15 2012, 6:02 PM EST
"As long as she has the option, one way or the other, and despite and hardship real or perceived, she DOES have the option"+1 My mother awlays told me that just because I dislike the choices i have does not mean they are not present. Sometimes you're given the choice between eating a turd sandwhich or eating a plateful of puke perogies. Just because you dislike one choice does not make that one choice go away. It's still there. Do you find this valuable? |
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epic_epicness |
78. RE: Brothel Trap
Feb 15 2012, 6:36 PM EST
"The implied coercion was not in the harassment, but in that she feared physical harm, if that's what you were referring to."coercion is compliance by force. there is no force in asking a female every day if she wants to F*ck. until the words "or else" come into play it is just harassment . Do you find this valuable? |
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Sharpie41 |
79. RE: Brothel Trap
Feb 15 2012, 7:08 PM EST
"I think you guys need to look up the meaning of coercion."Here it is the implication, they don't have to say "or else" It's what the VICTIM believes, for example, if you walk up to a friend and smack their as$, is it sexual abuse or no? If they think so, it is Do you find this valuable? |