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TreeLegs |
Finding a Happy Medium: When Groups Collide
Feb 13 2012, 11:24 PM EST
Two groups meet;Group A) Around a platoon and a half of mechanized Infantry guys and some MP's(50 people more or less). Leader is a Captain. They were escorting some relief to an FOB in the city and were over run. They fought their way to the FOB and realized it had been lost. When they asked what to do next, all they heard on the radio was screams, gunshots and the Batallion Executive Officer telling them that the post was lost and that they should not return. They've been on the road for about 2 months and are tired and overworked. Vehicles: 1 Bradley 3 Up armoured Humvees 1 PLS Fresh (mobile machine shop) 1 LMTV Armament: 150rds per person of 5.56 for M4s, M16s, SAWs 500rds 7.62 for M240's 475rds of .50 for M2's and M107 12 40mm grenades for M203 100rds of 9mm for M92 400rds 25mm for Bradley 3 TOW missles for Bradley Group B) About 75-100 people living in a farming community. The aging Leader is the property owner who opened his land to survivors willing to work. Most of the day to day decisions are made by the groups responsible while farming methods and larger decisions are directly overseen by the leader. They have multiple wells, livestock and crops which has made them the target for roving bandits that have used up most of their ammo. They have managed to stockpile some food for the winter. Profitable and self-sustaining would best describe the group. A tells B that they want a place that they can settle down in. Residents of B have mixed feelings on the matter. A has basically told B that they are not taking no for an answer. How would you handle the situation? Feel free to play either side. Do you find this valuable?
Keyword tags:
Colony
protection
survival
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redcomrad |
1. RE: Finding a Happy Medium: When Groups Collide
Feb 14 2012, 12:32 AM EST
Guerrilla warfare if we live in the mountains and/or forest if they are aggressive. If peaceful we will think about their answer, if we like it we tell them we will. But they must locate their headquarters outside of town in a fort of sorts, we will help them make it but when their in our town they are subject to our laws like anybody else. um just saying this is kinda bad either way because 100 farmers will have extreme problems making enough food for 50 soldiers without starving themselves. If you made say 300 farmers then that would be reasonable. *hopefully we have no females otherwise if they stay this could turn ugly* Do you find this valuable? |
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Carnack |
2. RE: Finding a Happy Medium: When Groups Collide
Feb 14 2012, 2:57 AM EST
Accept them and plot a removal of leadership.Let the body flail with the head missing then make a new offer. You get to stay and work your asses like anyone else and accept our rules or lay your head on the chopping block. Or better still call their threat and let them know you're a fan of "Scorched Earth". There is no happy medium when one group leaves you no options. If they wanted to stay and provide a security force asking would have made more sense. But they had to force it and now rather than a possible asset they are wormchow-to-be. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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IrishHitman |
3. RE: Finding a Happy Medium: When Groups Collide
Feb 14 2012, 3:27 AM EST
"Accept them and plot a removal of leadership.Nicely done Carnack, those are some pretty viable options. Do you find this valuable? |
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badderthanbond |
4. RE: Finding a Happy Medium: When Groups Collide
Feb 14 2012, 8:29 AM EST
| Post edited: Feb 14 2012, 8:32 AM EST
I have to go back to what red said, though. If its a community, there will be wives and daughters. 50 infantry would be nearly all men, and all men unless some of the mp's were women. That could be a disaster. So here's what I would do: offer them supplies to their next stop. If they decline, I would wait until nightfall to do anything, because although they have much better weapons, after 2 months it would be a pretty safe assumption to guess that their batteries in night vision were gone. Hide the women in a safe place and make them hurt at night before they take your weapons and impose a regime of sorts. Do you find this valuable? |
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Zee-Man |
5. RE: Finding a Happy Medium: When Groups Collide
Feb 14 2012, 9:04 AM EST
" A has basically told B that they are not taking no for an answer. "This is the telling sentence. If it were we are taking the next farm over whether you like it or not we will be neighbors, the result would be very different. If it were we are surrendering all our weapons and joining you whether you like it or not, again different. Different if it were we are disbanding and joining you, like it not. There must be a lot more dialog. In that dialog would be all the decision making points. I would never want to just tell my council "They wont take no for an answer". Its a sure bet that A will be seen as just another group of raiders if that is all I get to tell them. --------------------- Alternatively, In a radical change of policy the Lieuy's and Seargeants all meet with the Captain and together they decide it would be best if they disbanded and joined the community. If B will not accept them then they will take the next farm over and still provide firepower since that is the best way to ensure that B will help them with supply. Captain agrees with this snd presents it to B. B Leader decides that having A take the next farm over is the better plan. Later as the 2 neighbors get to know and trust each other, they will merge in some fashion. Do you find this valuable? |
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badderthanbond |
6. RE: Finding a Happy Medium: When Groups Collide
Feb 14 2012, 9:08 AM EST
But why walk even further, use even more fuel, and have the same scenario one farm over? They're far more likely to say "Stop us, then." and do what they want. What they "want" after months of being in the field could include your wife or daughter as much as your land. And that makes it a far less friendly scenario.
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rabidbeaver |
7. RE: Finding a Happy Medium: When Groups Collide
Feb 14 2012, 1:34 PM EST
Get them really drunk or high then get rid of the aggressive ones. It's kind of like natural selection ;).
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TreeLegs |
8. RE: Finding a Happy Medium: When Groups Collide
Feb 14 2012, 2:06 PM EST
| Post edited: Feb 14 2012, 2:25 PM EST
I do admire the concept that B could take A even in an ambush. For me to even consider this to work, I would have to here how you'd plan such a feat. With a fully operational Bradley, complete with thermal scopes and enough firepower to destroy B,C and D by itself, I don't have high hopes for this ambush. You're not dealing with normal unorganized raiders, but a highly organized military group. Short of B rolling an Abrams out of the barn, I believe they would lose this quickly not including the rest of the assets available to them. Though there is no right or wrong answer here, I believe that there is a more pragmatic and political solution. How could we negotiate something that would make all sides happy and not end in fire, blood and steel? Do you find this valuable? |
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badderthanbond |
9. RE: Finding a Happy Medium: When Groups Collide
Feb 14 2012, 2:21 PM EST
It is a bit unrealistic for a tank to have fuel after two months of roving, but even if it did and you were in their camp it's also unlikely that they'd engage their own camp with a Bradley. Thermal scopes don't see uniforms. Everyone would look like the bad guy. And in a circumstance that lopsided, there would likely not be a diplomatic solution. Look at Athenian history- the traditional "might makes right" dialogue from Thucydides is historical evidence of that...
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Carnack |
10. RE: Finding a Happy Medium: When Groups Collide
Feb 14 2012, 2:31 PM EST
| Post edited: Feb 14 2012, 3:01 PM EST
They already threw down the ultimatum TreeLegs. They WILL impose on us and they are not above using violence to do it so how can this end without virtual shackles being placed on the community?There is no end to this that doesn't end with death, abandonmen of the settlement, or virtual enslavement. These people will take everything because they can. And they will do it repeatedly. This could have been a peaceful thing till they let it be known that we had no say. There is no peacful solution here when one group is exerting force over the other. You remove them or you remove you. That's your only option if you want to avoid bowing to these people. That's my goal. Avoid getting enslaved (long term) by these people while preserving the lives of the only ones ones who matter to me. My group. Sorry dude but I'm not seeing any happy mediums here. You really think you can negotiate with someone who has you in the crosshairs? 3 out of 3 found this valuable. Do you? |
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TreeLegs |
11. RE: Finding a Happy Medium: When Groups Collide
Feb 14 2012, 2:40 PM EST
"It is a bit unrealistic for a tank to have fuel after two months of roving, but even if it did and you were in their camp it's also unlikely that they'd engage their own camp with a Bradley. Thermal scopes don't see uniforms. Everyone would look like the bad guy. And in a circumstance that lopsided, there would likely not be a diplomatic solution. Look at Athenian history- the traditional "might makes right" dialogue from Thucydides is historical evidence of that..."Ah, but they do see IR markings which are embedded in the helmets and if they are using ACU's, they have them on some of the pocket flaps. Thermal imaging doesn't just show you black and white blobs. Dependent on the range, you can see the heat difference that blood flow makes in the face. Telling friend from foe isn't that difficult and the sighting system is very accurate in the proper hands, capable of one shot take downs. You have to remember as well that these guys are trained in ground warfare. They arn't going to use a position that would make such attacks easy. Use of terrain is still emphasized as much as it was since the conception of organized warfare and will not be lost on A. Do you find this valuable? |
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badderthanbond |
12. RE: Finding a Happy Medium: When Groups Collide
Feb 14 2012, 3:02 PM EST
| Post edited: Feb 14 2012, 3:10 PM EST
Thermal really is mostly black and white, actually. It doesn't even work through glass that effectively. Certainly not at long range. And again, you neutralize a lot of the advantage of having a tank by being on their position. They wouldn't fire that close to their own men. Even on high alert against modern militaries most squads would sleep and watch half up half down. It's unlikely that they'd feel threatened enough by this group to leave more than about 10 on watch, and that is not an insurmountable number for people with any weapons. It wouldn't take much ammo to make a dent there. Also, these people live on the land, so it'd be tough for the troops to hide somewhere that the people couldn't find them. Think USSR vs Afghanistan in 1989. Soviet tanks litter the countryside over there still today. Tanks don't guarantee a win. Do you find this valuable? |
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TreeLegs |
13. RE: Finding a Happy Medium: When Groups Collide
Feb 14 2012, 3:15 PM EST
"They already threw down the ultimatum TreeLegs. They WILL impose on us and they are not above using violence to do it so how can this end without virtual shackles being placed on the community?On the surface I guess it would seem that way. Take a closer look at the situation. You have a superior group in regards to organization, equipment and training vs a loose group of farmers. Of they wanted to take what B had, it would be nealy effortless. They wouldn't have to even step out of their vehicles. The troops are tired and weary, wanting to get off the road and settle down. Given the situation where you've been in charge of 50 men and women that could never go back home and have been fighting an scavaging for 2 months. How would you handle this? B is lead by an old man who probably never intended this to get as big as it has. Now he just oversees the actual farming and people bring him bigger decisions like where to construct new buildings. The other sub factions inside of the group usually just preform their duties without direct oversight like preparing food, mechanical repairs, sewage, etc... Imagine how group B got started. People trickled in and they either stayed and worked and contributed or were kicked off the farm. Then raiders showed and some people die or were kidnapped. Wives, daughters, sons and husbands lost because they didn't have the means to fight back. Now you have this well armed but unknown group that wants shelter. Would the man that watched his daughter snatched away want more protection for his wife and kids? Do you find this valuable? |
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Carnack |
14. RE: Finding a Happy Medium: When Groups Collide
Feb 14 2012, 3:32 PM EST
"Of they wanted to take what B had, it would be nealy effortless. They wouldn't have to even step out of their vehicles."They would have a head for numbers. Why take one harvest when they could ring them for multiple harvests? Plus as you say. They are farmers. Why expend ammo when you can flex your firepower and get what you want without expending any ammo at all? " The troops are tired and weary, wanting to get off the road and settle down. Given the situation where you've been in charge of 50 men and women that could never go back home and have been fighting an scavaging for 2 months. How would you handle this?" I'd be very polite to the group and offer manpower to defend AND aid in harvesting more food because I'd be worried about causing our potential meal ticket to hate us or worse still fight back. " B is lead by an old man who probably never intended this to get as big as it has. Now he just oversees the actual farming and people bring him bigger decisions like where to construct new buildings. The other sub factions inside of the group usually just preform their duties without direct oversight like preparing food, mechanical repairs, sewage, etc..." If it works it works. "Now you have this well armed but unknown group that wants shelter." Not wants. DEMANDS. They will not let you say no. Wether you like it or not they will do as they please and take as they please. Who else does and takes as they please? All that was needed was an offer. An offer that left me free to say no and I would have bargained for them to share labor and would have welcomed them as equals. They didn't. They are invaders and when we get rid of them we will organize our own defensive setup with our new weapons. Do you find this valuable? |
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TreeLegs |
15. RE: Finding a Happy Medium: When Groups Collide
Feb 14 2012, 3:40 PM EST
"Thermal really is mostly black and white, actually. It doesn't even work through glass that effectively. Certainly not at long range. And again, you neutralize a lot of the advantage of having a tank by being on their position. They wouldn't fire that close to their own men. Even on high alert against modern militaries most squads would sleep and watch half up half down. It's unlikely that they'd feel threatened enough by this group to leave more than about 10 on watch, and that is not an insurmountable number for people with any weapons. It wouldn't take much ammo to make a dent there.Yes but I doubt our Taliban farmers also have stinger missiles and .50 cals with API rounds or have assistance from a foriegn government. I know tanks don't automatically make the winner. If it did, Saddam wouldn't have gotten owned on during Desert Storm. It's tactics that win the day and when your adversary has better equipment, more weapons and more training you don't walk away the victor often. Now Vietnam brings ups a good analogy, but they still had training and numbers. You still have to get on their position to make any attack effective. I don't think they would be so careless as to let them get that close. Even if it was just ten up at a time, they are on crewserve weapons mounted on to bullet proof vehicles. How would you attack such a group if they parked in open flat terrain? As soon as you fire the first round, you've just alerted the entire group and gave them your decision and put yourself in a "can not fail" situation. You do, and you've doomed you group. Do you find this valuable? |
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TreeLegs |
16. RE: Finding a Happy Medium: When Groups Collide
Feb 14 2012, 3:54 PM EST
| Post edited: Feb 14 2012, 4:04 PM EST
""Now you have this well armed but unknown group that wants shelter."Bold words which require bolder action. If you came to me trying to organize a attack against them, I would laugh at you. Why not make the offer anyway and see the result? If they have a head for numbers, then they know exactly what you just said. Just because they weren't exactly courteous when they first met, but that's no reason to immediately tell granny to go get her gun. Frustration and stress sometimes makes us forget ourselves. Do you find this valuable? |
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badderthanbond |
17. RE: Finding a Happy Medium: When Groups Collide
Feb 14 2012, 4:05 PM EST
The tank wouldn't even be able to run the scope indefinitely because of fuel and batteries being scarce, and individual nv units would be dead far before the two-month mark if they even had them (unlikely in most mech units or for MP). That makes it less likely that they would run thermal or night vision all night on watch unless they had a reason to. So don't let them suspect it. Also, the original post didn't say the area was entirely flat, so it's a bit unfair to add that now. Farming villages can be in valleys or mountainous terrain as well. Even on flat ground, though, night would provide decent cover. If you're in mountains, move slowly. If you're in Nebraska, run through a corn field. Slowly haha. Just saying it could happen.
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Carnack |
18. RE: Finding a Happy Medium: When Groups Collide
Feb 14 2012, 4:15 PM EST
Not telling granny to get her gun. Telling her to get her rat poison. We would probably not be able to fight them conventionally but poison? Oh yes that sounds workable.Downside of dependance on others for food. They know where and how to hit. And they can't be trusted. I cannot trust my people to them. If they want to show that they can be trusted they better offer something more than their word. But then what if they refuse. We just revealed that we aren't exactly cowed by them. Do you find this valuable? |
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badderthanbond |
19. RE: Finding a Happy Medium: When Groups Collide
Feb 14 2012, 4:29 PM EST
"Not telling granny to get her gun. Telling her to get her rat poison. We would probably not be able to fight them conventionally but poison? Oh yes that sounds workable.I agree here because again, these are going to be men who (like in 28 weeks later, or a number of other scenarios... Forgive me for the reference but it's accurate) may not have thought they'd ever see a woman again. The women in town are not safe in this scenario. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |