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LJ126	The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun. Feb 21 2012, 1:29 AM EST "What? We all know that a shotgun is more versatile and a .22LR rifle is a better dinner-getter. Let's not forget those AK and AR rifles. Even a .44 mag is no match to the firepower of a good long gun. LJ is trippin'." Let's acknowledge a few facts about the Sh*t Hitting the Fan: Crime will rise to unbelievable levels in short order, and local law enforcement will probably be unable to contain it on their own. Your likeliness of being the victim of armed criminal action will increase accordingly. Your self defense will take precedence more than ever before. When the fight comes to you, it will not take place at 200 yards - statistically speaking 200 centimeters is more likely, and 200 millimeters is possible. The "bad guy" will hit you when you are least alert and least likely to return the favor to him. Last, but certainly not least: a firearm of some kind is the only true equalizer to the predators that now wish to prey upon you. To be effective, it needs to be available to you. I concede the above facts about long guns; they are dramatically more effective than handguns at any distance, plain and simple. However, long guns have some shortcomings; portability and conceal-ability. Those two attributes can make you leave the guns "back there" or wherever else, where they are not handy to you. One of the biggest problems with long guns is that they're extremely awkward to "wear" in such a way that allows you to do any sort of chore other than operate the weapon. Slings are meant to help carry your weapon, and some or more or less effective than others, but none of them are perfect. Try doing any sort of real work (that requires your whole body and both hands) while wearing that M4 clone. A handgun is not nearly as obtrusive to everyday chores or physical labor. Continued - please hold responses until I have completed the OP. Post reply 5 out of 6 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you? Keyword tags: None
LJ126	1. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun. Feb 21 2012, 1:50 AM EST Eventually places will restore law and order, but these localities will probably frown on the carry of firearms. They will likely have seen enough violence through firearms because of the recent increase in crime. Your up-to-speed tactical rifle will not be a welcome sight and will likely be prohibited. Criminals and would-be predators will acknowledge this fact, and because they are not stupid, they will strike when you are vulnerable - like just as you leave the "gun-free" trading sector. A handgun presents some obvious advantages in this situation as well - even if it is illegal, a handgun on your person is better than the tactical carbine in your trunk or "back there," especially when you're being tailed out of the trade sector of the new colony or assailed by a lone wolf as you step out of your vehicle with groceries and provisions. Personal defense will become the primary use of a firearm for those living in "built-up" areas. Many of us with bug-in plans in these areas are not going to be able to rely on local wildlife for food because it simply does not exist! Dogs, cats, raccoons, opossum and maybe the occasional stray snake are all that's available around here, and relying on domesticated animals or loose livestock isn't an option with any sort of reliability. Other than that, it's also generally understood that the discharge of a firearm will attract unwanted attention. Given that the mantra of urban survival is a little something we call "LL" or "Laying Low," gunfire is not something you want to be involved in. Because of this, different tools are necessary to town and city dwellers. We probably won't resort to the scattergun or Dad's old .30-06 for dinner, rather, we will rely on stockpiles and trade goods to get dinner because Bambi or Thumper isn't an option. Continued again, please hold. Thanks! Post reply 3 out of 4 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
LJ126	2. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun. Feb 21 2012, 2:01 AM EST Obviously, all of our individual situations will differ from one another. This new reality - one where people will kill you to take your food, water, shelter or medical provisions - may or may not impact you in the same way as it will another. It might not be a big deal Post-SHTF (or post Z-Day) if you decide to go about your daily chores totally unarmed. However, in my world, I don't think that's realistic. If everything collapsed, and S truly hit the F, I think my very survival could hinge upon my carrying a weapon to protect myself. Because I can carry one just about anywhere concealed, and because it will not disable me or hinder me from doing any chore, a handgun is my primary choice for an End-of-the-World firearm. Period. Side note: As you all have undoubtedly noticed, I haven't opened up the bag of worms regarding the "best" survival handgun. I think that's a highly personal and individualized answer. One's personal abilities, size/body frame, experience with handguns, local terrain & environment, resources (both financial and otherwise), and personal tastes are all going to be reflected in their individual carry weapon. For this reason, I haven't scratched the surface of this broad topic. Most handguns constructed in the last 50 years will be more or less suitable to the task of personal defense, provided it's chambered in an adequate caliber and the shooter does their part to hit vital organs when they fire. Let the flaming and nit-picking begin. I look forward to your responses. ~LJ126 Post reply 2 out of 3 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
LJ126	3. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun. Feb 21 2012, 2:14 AM EST Side note to the side note: Take into consideration you holster options. A handgun is useless to you without a secure way to carry it on your person. "One Size Fits All" rarely does. For this reason, going mainstream might not be a bad idea. If you find a good holster for your uncommon or no-longer-manufactured (obsolete) personal defense weapon, get a second too. Post reply 4 out of 4 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
Carnack	4. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun. Feb 21 2012, 2:23 AM EST \| Post edited: Feb 21 2012, 2:25 AM EST Okay so first I do agree that long guns do suffer in terms of portability. That's just something to come to terms with. However while concealability would be a factor in the situation you describe I personally feel that you are describing a personal defense weapon rather than a general survival weapon. Yes a concealable handgun dominates in cases where you need that small size to conceal and work unimpeded. And yes again in urban situations the need for a critter gun is smaller so self defense would be the primary purpose for any firearm. But for those of us in the sticks where it is entirely possible to leave population centers behind the need for a personal defensive weapon is still there but the uses for a critter gun eclipses it since the odds of a hostile in any one plot of forest is relativly small. So a gun like a .22 becomes better simply because the ammunition is cheap and very compact but still able to kill a small animal. You do bring up a good point about slings but you make a better case for why it's best to carry a sidearm in addition to your main firearm because a rifle is a better killer but not very easy to work with while you're carrying it. Good thread overall. Post reply 3 out of 3 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
LJ126	5. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun. Feb 21 2012, 3:08 AM EST \| Post edited: Feb 21 2012, 4:45 AM EST Definitely, and I'm totally on board with your criticism. Thank you for it Carnack! This thread is somewhat meant for those of us who live in (or close to) town. Folks out in the woods will have a whole lot more leeway regarding when and where they can carry a long gun, even when it's being used as a PDW; I think this is part of the reason why folks like me want to buy property out in the middle of the woods for a bug out/retirement spot - privacy. On top of there being fewer folks around, those folks are much more used to seeing someone carrying a deer rifle or shotgun, and probably wouldn't think twice about Roy out getting dinner or doing some target practice. I believe folks who live "in town" should also own a good hunting gun for bugging-out/urban precision work and probably even a more specialized PDW for defending the castle, along with their handgun(s). However, as addressed above, these weapons have big drawbacks outside of the house. Now, hardcore civil unrest/rioting or a hypothetical invasion scenario? Screw CCW, gimme something big and loud with a 20+ capacity magazine and a nice trigger. However, I don't envision "war" as part of my survival situation. I guess this would be yet another reason to have a secondary PDW, possibly that long gun I suggest people in the city own but keep primarily for home defense and target shooting. Post reply 3 out of 4 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
Carnack	6. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun. Feb 21 2012, 3:20 AM EST \| Post edited: Feb 21 2012, 3:23 AM EST So where is concealability a plus outside of the scenario you describe? What are you trying to prevent? I mean yeah I would want to avoid drawing attention early on but later when things have "settled" then knowing you're armed or thinking you aren't won't detract them if they want what you have and have the ability to take it. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
TreeLegs	7. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun. Feb 21 2012, 3:41 AM EST I think if you wanted a "do it all" handgun, I'd have to vote for the .357 magnum in a double action revolver. You get: Reliability Stopping power Fires two types of ammo(.38 special also) The round is popular amongst hand gun enthusiasts so ammo is almost always available. In a 6 inch barrel(or a 4in if you're good) you can take it hunting for almost anything. Available in 5 to 8 round capacities. Since fashion isn't too much of a concern when SHTF and post apoc, concealment shouldn't be too difficult. Also doubles as a hell of a beating stick. Buy some speed loaders and practice regularly and you can load those rounds as fast as you could a semi auto. Another good thing is that you don't have to worry about magazines, which can break or be lost. Post reply 3 out of 3 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
LJ126	8. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun. Feb 21 2012, 3:44 AM EST \| Post edited: Feb 21 2012, 3:48 AM EST If someone is capable of taking your stuff, they'll know it, and being armed visibly or not isn't going to make a big difference either way. You're absolutely right there. However, I'd rather my hypothetical adversary underestimate my ability to fight back than get it right, as they might believe me a lower risk than I actually am. If that's the case, I might have a fighting chance. Personally, I think this is the primary advantage concealment offers post-SHTF; I'd rather keep folks guessing and not tip my hand than put myself out there all on my lonesome, even if I'm better armed when I do so. Folks remember "that one guy with the rifle." (For me, it'd be "That white guy with the rifle." I stand out enough as it is, as white people are a very small minority here.) Besides, the preventative value of one person being visibly well-armed is arguable, even after the initial storm has settled. I can only really think of one situation where an obvious show of force is ideal, and that's if you've got the capability of presenting an overwhelming show of power. Like I was saying before, one guy kitted out in ACU or MARPAT with LBE and their tactical rifle isn't impressive to would-be bandits. It might even invite issues (like precision marksmen) because an outsider would easily be able to tell that the camouflaged person is ready to rock and roll. It also implies a high level of general preparedness and it also implies that you've got ammunition and other vital supplies (like ammo, weapons, possibly food and water, etc.) Now... if you have a squad or section of guys all similarly kitted out, ready to rock and roll, that has some real preventative value in any environment. Nobody will want to touch that. Post reply 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
LJ126	9. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun. Feb 21 2012, 3:46 AM EST \| Post edited: Feb 21 2012, 3:56 AM EST "I think if you wanted a "do it all" handgun, I'd have to vote for the .357 magnum in a double action revolver. You get: Reliability Stopping power Fires two types of ammo(.38 special also) The round is popular amongst hand gun enthusiasts so ammo is almost always available. In a 6 inch barrel(or a 4in if you're good) you can take it hunting for almost anything. Available in 5 to 8 round capacities. Since fashion isn't too much of a concern when SHTF and post apoc, concealment shouldn't be too difficult. Also doubles as a hell of a beating stick. Buy some speed loaders and practice regularly and you can load those rounds as fast as you could a semi auto. Another good thing is that you don't have to worry about magazines, which can break or be lost. " Believe it or not, we're not really interested in which handgun is best for this discussion - as I noted above in the third section of the OP. In a way that's a smaller issue. Also, because of the great variety of handguns available, of lesser significance than the way one carries and why - obviously some choices are better than others, but it really depends on the application and the person carrying it. I am kinda trying to avoid going that direction with this thread. But I do agree, .357 Magnum is an excellent choice if one were inclined. Best? Depends on who you ask. It does offer some distinct advantages over other choices. However, let's save that for another thread though. =) Post reply 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
KyanCross	10. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun. Feb 21 2012, 5:36 AM EST how about using those pistol rifle type guns? Like the PLR-16 or other AK pistol varients? Post reply Do you find this valuable?
renet76	11. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun. Feb 21 2012, 5:50 AM EST That was a well thought out thread nice work LJ126 I agree with your thoughts on why a handgun may just be a better option then a long gun Sure there will be the old debate as to the finer points of each but all round i like the handgun solution For me i like the simple fact that if things are really rough and your on the move a lot a hand gun concealed in a holster is a lot less hassles then carrying around a rifle or a shotgun slung over your shoulders it leaves your hands free to do other things If you are still mixing with people say in the early stages then not openly displaying a weapon will prevent unneeded attention from military and police if they are still active in any form and just say it really was zombies going around having dinner on people well other survivors will see you have a weapon and think your going to save the day or rob them one of the two I have a shoulder bag with camera written on the side it hold my pistol ( inside its holster ) plus 4 mags and one spare box of ammo easily i can put a bit of other stuff in there as well and still draw the weapon with ease Now the reason i mention this is simply because i can be carrying a handgun spare mags and ammo and yet be able to run , climb walls/ ladders and so forth without the hindrance of a rifle/shotgun snagging on other things at the same time If people glance in my direction they will see a dude with a small shoulder bag walking down the road and most likely wont think i can help them or think i have something worth taking nor would it get the attention of military or police Change that to some one with a fully kitted out assault rifle and see how much attention they will get it even in chaos people will notice Post reply Do you find this valuable?
timberrattler	12. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun. Feb 21 2012, 5:58 AM EST What in the wild, wild world of sports is a goin' on here! A handgun as the best general-purpose survival firearm? That's nuts. That's what I thought when I read the title of this thread. Then I clicked on it and saw that LJ was the OP. Then I was really confused. Now after reading his reasons why it makes more sense. His situation like all of our situations is different. I've never been a handgun guy. They're a close up weapon and I never have gotten around to doing much shooting with the one I own. I'm not big on discussing them here because my experience is limited to mainly revovlers. I've shot semi-autos and the most impressive to me is the FN 5.7s. I guess I'm crazy about that pistol because it will reach out and touch a target. Now in urban areas (something else I'm painfully ignorant of) I think a pistol really does make more sense. When you consider who you'll be facing, most of them will be carrying handguns too. I don't know what the stats are but I'd say in heavily populated areas handguns outnumber long guns considerably. An assortment of handguns, .22, .38/.357mag, 9mm, .45acp would cover your most popular handgun rounds and cover a variety of different applications. Post reply 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
renet76	13. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun. Feb 21 2012, 6:14 AM EST @ timberrattler there in lies a deciding factor the environment can and will play part is what suits the best Also it will come down to what you feel more comfy with for an example i haven't fired my .300mag or any of my rifles since i had surgery on my shoulder in September last year but i have already used 1500 rounds of 9mm this year to date For me my pistol would be the best choice given the environment and the amount of practice i have had with it Post reply 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
ironhand	14. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun. Feb 21 2012, 6:20 AM EST Actually, I usually don't carry a rifle. What I do carry is something I've talked about before...a Pistol Primary Kit in my Scramble Bag. I think it would apply here too.....when you are "reduced" to a pistol, you can still be effective if you're ready and carrying enough ammo (and mags). So are you "reduced" when you can easily use a SKS vest with 6-8 mags (15-17 rounds each) for your pistol? The other thing is that your pistol and "vest" can be put in a bag for when you need it or the vest worn under a jacket as it's not bulkie, but gives access to 90-136 rounds of ammo. Oh yeah, and MATCHING handguns that use the same mags up the anty here as you can carry one "smaller" concealed and another full-size in a bag : ) Post reply 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
Filadog	15. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun. Feb 21 2012, 7:14 AM EST "If someone is capable of taking your stuff, they'll know it, and being armed visibly or not isn't going to make a big difference either way. " I think most people would be more hesitant to attack a person they know is armed ...I know I sure would. I think just seeing a person with a gun would be enough to prevent many people from attacking you The trouble with your thinking is that you say "The Best General Purpose Survival Firearm" and then go on to describe , not general purpose survial situations but rather a very specific survival situation of where you would need a conceable or easy to carry weapon for short range defense Now a handgun is certainly good at that but that doesn't make it a good GENERAL PURPOSE Survival firearm since it is inferior to so many other guns for other survival situations I think you can't really say any gun is the Best General Purpose survival firearmn, though probably the best candidate would be a .22 semi auto rifle, which is why you need several different guns so they can be used for different jobs that a survival firearm might be needed for Post reply 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
11ACRBlackhorse	16. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun. Feb 21 2012, 7:36 AM EST This whole idea assumes way to much for my liking. You assume they will only have pistols in the city. Most cities have police armories and National Gaurd Armories. Which both are getting closer in enventories of carbines. Plus gun stores and gun owners in town. The criminals will aquire carbines, shotguns(slugs or shot), and rifles on top of any pistols. You also assume if they dont see a gun and your outside, that you arent armed. Huh? Its during and or after a SHTF and you want them to beleave you arent armed for protection. Either your crazy, stupid, lucky, or have hidden weapons or backup somewhere. Or you wouldnt have survived this long. You assume if they see long guns they will have the force to take it. But if you dont have a exposed gun that they just wont shoot you and take what you have. Or that they arent that well armed and a shown gun will persuade them to look for easier pickings. You assume even with a hidden gun that you will get a chance to defend yourself. Or that just having that gun makes any bit of a difference. They have you out gunned and concealed guns on targets/victims wont be a new thing. So they will have you covered and any wrong move will be termination. You never give up slfdefense for anything. Its the only thing keeping you and your loved ones alive. If the trader/town requires n guns for entry, you really dont think they wont have some detector wands and have patt dons for said contraband. Violators could be shot, locked up, everything taken just so you can feel secure for a trade. Pistol is a personal defense or last ditch gun. It should never become a primary defense weapon ever. You should never do anything outside your BOL alone. Groups of 2 or more should be the norm. A loner is easily ambushed, outflanked, and caught off gaurd. Use the buddy system once SHTF. No exceptions ever, outside the BOL. Now a carbine in whatever caliber you like will do. Post reply 1 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
Sharpie41	17. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun. Feb 21 2012, 7:41 AM EST "how about using those pistol rifle type guns? Like the PLR-16 or other AK pistol varients? " Still got the problem of concealability. I don't think a handgun is the best "general" survival firearm, but honestly that's not what you're describing. Seems to me that you're describing a defensive firearm, which does have something to do with survival, but the purpose is specific. Anyways, I do think a handgun would be carried for defense and to just have ANY gun on you, but like the old addage, use your pistil to get to your rifle. I don't know about anyone else but I'm a hell of a lot better with a rifle than I am a pistol. But all things considered (portability and lack of, concealability and lack of, etc) I agree 100%. Post reply 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
11ACRBlackhorse	18. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun. Feb 21 2012, 7:52 AM EST If I was a thug willing to snipe armed people, I would be willing to just shoot anyone to rob them. And anyone brave enough to (look) unarmed, and still be alive, would become a target quick. Your outside work would be gardening, gathering, scavanging, and trading. Any of these activities will attract unwanted attention from lots of people. Being obviously armed will detour weak attackers. Yes it advertises you have a gun. But after SHTF most of the unarmed easy people will have already been killed or chased off. So just being out means you have something for protection. Especially if you dont run and hide at every other person seen. If I was a criminal I would cover you with guns to ask you to give me more. Any sign of resistance will be met with instant death. Clean your corpse of loot and drag you off to hide. Then wait for any search/rescue parties sent to find why you havent returned. If a bandit/criminal is willing to kill you without talking what makes you they wont do it anyways. Or atleast put a shotgun to your head and then take said concealled gun. Its a good idea in a semi stable area. But its short sghted on security and human nature. This is SHTF and people will kill over nothing, just to kill. And usually they will be in groups. So not having backup and more accessable firepower is a big no-no and just asking to be robbed and or shot. Sorry I will never go by myself and with only a PDF(pistol). Thats just me and what Ive learned throughout my life with the lower lifes of this world. Post reply 0 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
renet76	19. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun. Feb 21 2012, 9:48 AM EST "This whole idea assumes way to much for my liking. You assume they will only have pistols in the city. Most cities have police armories and National Gaurd Armories. Which both are getting closer in enventories of carbines. Plus gun stores and gun owners in town. The criminals will aquire carbines, shotguns(slugs or shot), and rifles on top of any pistols. You also assume if they dont see a gun and your outside, that you arent armed. Huh? Its during and or after a SHTF and you want them to beleave you arent armed for protection. Either your crazy, stupid, lucky, or have hidden weapons or backup somewhere. Or you wouldnt have survived this long. You assume if they see long guns they will have the force to take it. But if you dont have a exposed gun that they just wont shoot you and take what you have. Or that they arent that well armed and a shown gun will persuade them to look for easier pickings. You assume even with a hidden gun that you will get a chance to defend yourself. Or that just having that gun makes any bit of a difference. They have you out gunned and concealed guns on targets/victims wont be a new thing. So they will have you covered and any wrong move will be termination. " Or you live in a country where firearms are not that common and actually not advertising that you have one is more beneficial than waving it around. Where i work there are 480 people employed and 479 of them do not have a handgun and only 20 people there actually have a firearms license My point is its more probable i will be facing knives then firearms Post reply 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?

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