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Discussion: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun.
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LJ126 |
40. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun.
Feb 21 2012, 2:17 PM EST
| Post edited: Feb 21 2012, 2:20 PM EST
I think it beneficial to clarify a few points about firearms in general, I think it might help get things back on track here. Sorry for not listing these up front.Obviously, there is no "do it all" firearm. Different firearms have different purposes, and some do some things better than others. Each has it's own strengths and weaknesses. A firearm that is not on out person is essentially non-existent. You cannot count on it to help you at all. We can integrate those strengths and weakness into each of our situations. Yes, a .22LR carbine, 12 gauge shotgun, or 5.56 military rifle is more versatile than a handgun on paper, but we don't live on paper. We live in different areas, and different places have different needs and different social norms. As addressed above, those weapons are only valuable to us when they are on us, and carrying those weapons have repercussions - ranging from making our neighbors uncomfortable to attracting the attention of BG's. Taking all of that into consideration, the most logical choice for a "one gun" is a handgun (and a good concealment holster for it.) While it isn't the best choice on paper, because it is going to be on your person, discreetly, anywhere you and your family unit will go (preferably they're armed too) it trumps that big gun buried in your trunk because it's already ready to go. Those big weapons have a place, but it's wiser to keep those off your person and also concealed nearby. Your concealed handgun can get you to them in a pinch. Obviously, if you live in the sticks or totally off the grid, concealment isn't an issue. In town or in a big city, a visible weapon could be a noose around your neck. As ACR points out, other things have the same effect, but there's little we can do to mask our level of nutrition. I also agree, teamwork is important, but if you don't have that you gotta rely on yourself. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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LJ126 |
41. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun.
Feb 21 2012, 2:27 PM EST
| Post edited: Feb 21 2012, 2:29 PM EST
However, a handgun is a compromise. They are short range weapons, they're difficult to use well, in my experience they require more maintenance than the typical long gun --- and they're generally underpowered. They're also next to useless for acquiring a meat-based meal.However, those weaknesses can be nullified in the right environment - like in town. There's no bears, but the greatest impediment to your survival is more dangerous than they are. If you choose an adequate firearm and maintain proficiency, it can net a meal and is more than adequate to defend yourself in many circumstances. It's portability means that it's going to be on your person and out of the way, and it's not going to attract the attention of most people. If your sole purpose for your firearm is self-defense, because it will not attract attention to you from a distance, and because it is sufficient to do the job, it is a good choice. Obviously the handgun isn't an ideal weapon. None of them are. However, for short range, up close and personal situations that require an immediate response, a handgun will do the job. And, it's got the added benefit of not freaking everyone out or attracting the attention of local scumbags - but it's sufficient to handle that if you're capable of doing your part. Incidentally, I left every single bit of this out because I thought it was common knowledge here. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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LJ126 |
42. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun.
Feb 21 2012, 3:27 PM EST
| Post edited: Feb 21 2012, 3:30 PM EST
"Actually, I usually don't carry a rifle. What I do carry is something I've talked about before...a Pistol Primary Kit in my Scramble Bag. I think it would apply here too.....when you are "reduced" to a pistol, you can still be effective if you're ready and carrying enough ammo (and mags).In case folks were wondering what Ironhand is talking about here with regards to the Primary Pistol Kit: http://www.zombiesurvivalwiki.com/page/%2410+Tactical+Vest This is definitely a highly portable, high "payload" option for making a handgun into your primary defensive arm. Ironhand has taken his pistolcraft to a much higher level than most, and I would advocate that those who expect to use a pistol as their primary firearm do the same. He's a pistol wizard, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
Zee-Man |
43. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun.
Feb 21 2012, 4:14 PM EST
| Post edited: Feb 21 2012, 4:50 PM EST
"Actually, I usually don't carry a rifle. What I do carry is something I've talked about before...a Pistol Primary Kit in my Scramble Bag. "Actually I didnt have anything to add, sittin here and learning some more. But, I got excited to see a reply from Ironhand! You, my friend are the main reason Im here on ZSDW : ) Do you find this valuable? |
11ACRBlackhorse |
44. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun.
Feb 21 2012, 4:31 PM EST
Now if I came across as "talking down" that wasnt the intention. And I wasnt questioning your prepping abilities. Ive been meaning to post a pistol option for a good weapon system.IE like PPS-43C in 7.62X25 AK Draco 7.62X39 AK Drcao 5.54X39 AR 5.56X45 Or any similar type pistol would be a great option especially with red dot/reflex sights. Now I would agree with something in this book over just a Glock or similiar type standard (short) pistol. Their longer barrels with higher velocities will increase range and accuracy at ranges past up close and dirty. LJ again I didnt mean to question your planning. I did come across a little harsh on this topic and your pistol concealed idea. I do see real scenarios in a SHTF world that. I just took it wrong and got my rabbied @rse lock jawed and wouldnt let go. I did mean to post good pistol alternatives others commented on but we got to butting heads over this. And sorry for that. I will post a shotgun 12ga pump pistol type weapon my gun dealer is trying to get me to buy. I dont see the benefit of a two foot shotgun with a max capacity of 3rds, including one in the chamber. Its a modified Remington 870 Express and costs a little over $1000 with permits and all. LJ thanks for atleast answering my comments and I never didnt see why someone would use a handgun. My issue was the concealed part being that much better. I understand the idea and reasoning and to my thinking its a trade off. And one I hope to not have to make. You could always tell the cops even in good undercover clothes. Their clothes was correct but not well worn. To new and neat even when dirty. Plus they didnt act punkish but still had the additude "dont mess with me". Which came across as armed with a pistol and a badge. You could spot them at 30ft and some even farther just by their walk and body language. To me even if not seen everyone is considered armed and deadly, period 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
Filadog |
45. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun.
Feb 21 2012, 5:23 PM EST
I think this is like saying " The Best General Purpose Survival Vehicle is a Snowmobile"...and then go on about how good a snowmobile is in deep snow and how it's better then a truck , , Jeep, Motorcycle etc.in the winter backwoods of AlaskaNow I'm sure this might be true but instead of an example of an all around "GENERAL PURPOSE: vehicle you are talking about a specialised one that while good in deep snow is eclipsed by many other vehicles for most other jobs While a pistol is the perfect choice for the specialised survival need of having a weapon that is easy to carry and conceal and to be used at close range, like a snowmobile it is not a good General Purpose choice capable of doing other jobs I think if I was trying to survive in the city I would actually probably USE my 22 rifle more then I would use my pistol. The rifle would be perfect for shooting food like pigeons, park squirrels, cats, stray dogs etc. Using a supressor or just CB caps it would be very quite. I'm not saying don't have a pistol, you should, just that it is not a General Purpose Survival gun but rather a Specialised one...thats why you need more then one gun I think it's crazy to say the presence of a gun will not help deter an attacker. In the USA a gun supposedly is used around a million times every year to protect it's owner, of course only in a fraction of those times one has to be fired, the others just seeing that the person is armed is enough. I think just like today in the post Apoc world a person that seems to be unarmed would be seen as an easier target......Really you have a club or a knife..or even a pistol.. who would you choose to attack ...A person that looks unarmed or a guy holding a shotgun? Now maybe a very few would see no difference between attacking an armed man and what looks like an unarmed one but I think they would get weeded out pretty fast probably Do you find this valuable? |
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LJ126 |
46. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun.
Feb 21 2012, 6:22 PM EST
I'm not knocking the usefulness of a good .22 rifle. No doubt they're handy. I'd probably choose a bolt gun over a semi-auto (especially if a suppressor and subsonic rounds were being used for reliability's sake) but I believe I would find more use out of any good handgun.Like I was saying in the OP, most town and urban dwellers do not associate meat with animals. Many have never hunted for anything to eat outside of a restaurant or grocery store. While there are things to eat in a city most aren't real appetizing and many will refuse to do it. "Yum, pigeons and rats again? My favorite..." Nope, the firearm will likely be pressed into service for self defense. It makes sense to me to get an appropriate one for that job, and that's one that you can carry without being noticed. Noting the statistic you bring up, the overwhelming majority of those incidents in the USA, handguns are the go-to weapon that stops the crime. Why? Because a handgun is portable and the person carrying it does so because they can conceal it. As you just said, only a fool would attack someone who is obviously armed. Now, as I said before, a solo survivor with an RRA or Colt AR might scare away most would-be punks with his weapons. However, it's only a matter of time before the "organized" bad guys (who aren't p*ssies) get a whiff of it, especially if the solo survivor is showing it off to the whole world. They love guns, especially black guns. If he doesn't have a support network, he's an easy target to them and he's probably going to get a visit when he's most vulnerable. Since most of us here don't have a squad to back us up, and we'll likely will be flying solo or in a pair, laying low makes more sense in town. Continued -- 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
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LJ126 |
47. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun.
Feb 21 2012, 6:33 PM EST
The obvious argument to the last statement is as ACR pointed out, bad guys don't need a reason to come visit you. They will hurt you and take your sh!t for fun.Agreed. For those situations, in public, at least you're not attracting attention to yourself and your concealed handgun gives you an edge over being totally unarmed. They might not expect you to be armed, like those in the statistics you noted. It's unlikely that they're just gonna pull up and shoot you in the head, but if they did, even the AR-15 isn't going to help there anyway. Now, if ten guys run into your home after kicking in the front door, nothing less than a home defense shotgun, AK, AR or other serious weapon will do. That very well could happen, and I know I'd want something bigger than either a .22 or any caliber handgun, period. However, showing off your big guns only increases the odds of it because the sharp bad guys will not just randomly attack, they will plan it out to the most minute detail. Why attract that situation in the first place if you can get by without doing so? So yes, I think one NEEDS to own a defensive carbine or shotgun if they're serious about survival, but that's a second tier tool. It is still my contention that the best general-purpose survival firearm for the average townie or urbanite is a good handgun and a holster to carry and conceal it. Peanut butter on a rat trap will catch a lot of things and they cost a lot less than a Ruger 10/22 and ammo, and make even less noise. Besides, after setting those traps, they're fire-and-forget. No hunting required. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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LJ126 |
48. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun.
Feb 21 2012, 6:52 PM EST
@ ACR:Hey bud, no biggie. Again I apologize for getting out of line and slinging mud, believe it or not I'm really trying to be better about it than I was in the past. We're both really enthusiastic about firearms and survival, and I think that because we have different philosophies and situations our approaches adequately reflect that and it's only natural that we'd disagree. I respect your input and it's definitely caused me to fine tune my position on this thread by a pretty large margin. If anything, your input has illustrated a big weakness in my own planning --- making local survival buddies to team up with. I have a few contacts but they're not solid yet, they're still really new. Maybe I can try to get them more involved for a mutually-beneficial outcome. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
renet76 |
49. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun.
Feb 21 2012, 6:55 PM EST
| Post edited: Feb 21 2012, 7:03 PM EST
"When SHTF you don't think people will be robbed and or killed for guns. And criminals already have more guns than you think. Plus all those illegal gun stashes or stock piles people have that aren't known or legal.Hence the environment dictates what is preferable to use and my environment dictates that concealed is a better option Say i do open carry a weapon then its highly probable that i will be gun down from an unknown position simply to take my firearm where as if i do not show i am carrying a weapon its more likely that i would be threatened with clubs or similar Sure there is a few illegal stashes of firearms around and criminals have firearms as well but mainly handguns as well no one wants to do 10 years for owning a semi auto .22 and why do the criminals prefer handguns the same reason i do its discrete No offense man but you do a lot of assuming that other people are assuming no one else will get guns by other means i don't think any one has said yet that criminals wont have guns. You don't think that a lot of thought was put into selecting what would be the most practical firearm for my location during and post SHTF? given that i do not intend to use firearms for hunting or anything of that nature Do you find this valuable? |
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renet76 |
50. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun.
Feb 21 2012, 7:18 PM EST
@ACR I just want to clarify I wont be lone wolfing it nor will i rely on just a pistol for every defensive situation. Taking into account the variation between countries the most practical solution for me is a concealed weapon Should i carry a rifle or a shotgun then it is very probable that i would be attack just to take it given the limited supply of firearms that will be around regardless of how much looting and and people having them taken from them you cant just make guns out of thin air they have to be there to start with and a lot will be locked in safes never to be seen again once the owner dies So for my location i am better off being discrete if i am mixing with other people however around my BOL then long arms will be primary defensive weapon not pistols Do you find this valuable? |
LWJ2009 |
51. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun.
Feb 21 2012, 10:10 PM EST
Ever been to a golf course this time of year or a park? A .22 would be great for plinking the Ribeye of the Sky and if you can stand the taste they are food. Then again depending on how hungry you are they might be pretty damn good eating as well without to much extra prep. You would be surprised at the kinds of creatures you can find in an urban environment, that are quite shootable and can be eaten. I would suggest you go check out the wildlife again.A handgun is also the most difficult weapon to shoot with any accuracy, and it is a defensive weapon only. Not to mention your going to treat every body that you come across as armed. Which means that I am going to keep as far away from you as I can and render your pistol moot. Do you find this valuable? |
StrykerPez |
52. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun.
Feb 21 2012, 10:57 PM EST
The way I see it is this:FIREARMS ARE TOOLS. Use the right tool for the job. A gun is just a tool that makes a very small piece of metal travel very fast. If you're talking centimeters, I would say the best tool for the job would be a knife. You need to get the small piece of metal into your attacker ASAP, not necessarily at a high velocity. A knife wins. And if you're talking distance, I would say a rifle with a scope. Now does this mean no pistol? Nope, just as having a power impact driver and a multitool with a phillips bit does not compensate for the lack of a regular screwdriver. The handgun serves its purpose. That purpose is NOT BEING AWESOME. In my opinion a handgun should be very simple, durable, common, carryable... basically, all the things that such a firearm is good at doing. Things a handgun should not be is flashy, large, high capacity, automatic, silenced, or accessorized. All those features are better served with a different TOOL entirely. A handgun is a back-up, a last ditch.... Just as LJ said. I don't think you should be without one. My personal carry when I'm on the ranch is a Ruger .22. Do you find this valuable? |
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LWJ2009 |
53. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun.
Feb 21 2012, 11:04 PM EST
A silenced handgun would be a very nice tool to have though, a 9mm with a can would be a wonderful thing. Just imagine the odd Zombie you could whack without the loud bang, that can could be heard for miles. Not to mention it does keep you from having to beat something to death and reduces the risk of getting scratched or nibbled on quite a bit. In a world of one bite and your fooked, I would def love to acquire a silenced pistol. Now if only my wife would let me get a Class 3 license and use the savings acount......................
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TreeLegs |
54. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun.
Feb 21 2012, 11:08 PM EST
"The obvious argument to the last statement is as ACR pointed out, bad guys don't need a reason to come visit you. They will hurt you and take your sh!t for fun.This is all too true. However, carrying a weapon in the open can make a situation worse. BG's might think you think that you're trying to be a tough guy and might start some mess with you. While it can be said that they would do it regardless, it's the difference of walking through a door and kicking it in. ACR brings up a good point about CC. Most people think since they have a gun on them that they can walk around acting like Josey Wales. Surviving in an urban environment is about blending in and in some cases, backing down when appropriate. Do you want to lose some of your stuff, your pride or your life? That pistol you're carrying should be the LAST RESORT when confronting a bad situation. When you can't leave or somehow resolve the situation without violence then you might need to draw that weapon. Just because you're packing doesn't mean you're Super Man. There are too many variables to account for once it comes out your holster to secure a winning situation. You should conduct yourself as you would without one and you don't draw attention to it. As far as looking like you're doing better off than most, don't. Wear bigger clothes, dirty yourelf up some, look unkept. The old saying, "When in Rome..." should be taken to heart. Basically, you're looking for the same skills that spys, assassins and snipers use. Blend in to the background and disapear. People won't see what they don't notice. You want to stay off the radar as much as possible and walking around with your favorite boom stick showing isn't one of them...unless everyone else is doing it. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
SasquatchJim |
55. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun.
Feb 22 2012, 12:24 AM EST
I understand the points the LJ is trying to make, and they certainly have merit. However, there are a few things I disagree on.First off, I see frequent mentions of "in town" and "urban survival." While it's true that a handgun may work better in town, what about the people that don't live in towns? Where I live, there are very few people and you can see very long distances. So, in that case, a long gun works better for all-around use. Basically, I don't think you can say anything is "the best general-purpose survival firearm" if it requires the qualifier of being used in close-quarters. Furthermore, I think some clarity should be made in regards "survival." For me, survival is primarily the acquisition of food and resources, with protection and/or combat being called upon only when necessary. From the posts here it sounds as if combat is the primary usage of a survival weapon. But, if you're really getting into that many fights all the time, it sounds like there is something wrong with your survival plan. Going along with that, it's my belief that the best "general purpose" weapon should have the highest number of advantages relative to its disadvantages. To me, the only advantage hanguns have is concealibility. While that is important, long guns have the advantage in capacity, ease of use, accuracy, firepower, range, durability, price (often), and more. Also, it seems as if long guns have the widest variety of uses. While handguns are generally only suited to close-range combat, long guns can be used for hunting all kinds of game as well. Finally, I have to look at this from the viewpoint of a raider. If I was going to kill someone for their supplies, I wouldn't do it from close range (i.e. handgun distance.) I'd do it from a longer range, as that isn't as dangerous to me and it is easier to set up effectively. Do you find this valuable? |
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SasquatchJim |
56. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun.
Feb 22 2012, 12:27 AM EST
Continued.So, simply put, I don't really think you can say any one type of weapon is the best for survival. It depends on a number of factors including location, population, the nature of the plan, etc. If you live in the middle of the Arctic, then a handgun isn't the best general-purpose gun for you. Similarly, if you live in the middle of a city teeming with people, a long-barreled .300 Win. Mag isn't going to be the best option. Do you find this valuable? |
Sharpie41 |
57. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun.
Feb 22 2012, 12:42 AM EST
See why I don't think threads should be locked or bans issued right away? Always a middle ground.Anyways, I agree, handguns are specialized tools, and they do have more disadvantages than advantages compared to a rifle, BUT (There's always a "but" eh?) in the scenarios LJ is talking about (Working, playing, lounging etc) it is better to have a handgun attached to your body and not make you want to put it down, than to have the biggest, baddest assault-type rifle...laying 10 feet away. That said, you will use your handgun to get to the previously mentioned, biggest, baddest assault-type rifle. (3 times now?) Stryker: Disagree on the silencer, I would kill to have a silenced .22 or 9mm, so I think you should have one, but not necessarily mounted, just available. Do you find this valuable? |
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TreeLegs |
58. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun.
Feb 22 2012, 1:00 AM EST
"Finally, I have to look at this from the viewpoint of a raider. If I was going to kill someone for their supplies, I wouldn't do it from close range (i.e. handgun distance.) I'd do it from a longer range, as that isn't as dangerous to me and it is easier to set up effectively."Not in total disagreement, but trying to steal from someone buy taking them down from long range seems less likely to succeede than up close. You don't know if he was one of many, if he had anything worth taking(weighed against the rounds used to kill him, which will probably be more than one). Shooting also gives away your intent and position. Let's say you are in a second or third story window. The guy you have in your crosshairs could have a buddy right under your window or guys the next block over. When you go to claim your spoils, your day goes south real quick. Then again, this could apply to being in close as well, except you can be (hopefully) more stealthy about it. Side note: What exactly are we considering "handgun distance"? Do you find this valuable? |
toxic_shock |
59. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun.
Feb 22 2012, 2:37 AM EST
I believe that LJ envisions a different type of SHTF than some of you. In a slow, miserable collapse of society, cities will not necessarily start burning overnight and raiders on horseback aren't going to come galloping into town to slaughter the few unfortunate souls that haven't bugged out to the countryside and begun living like the Cartwrights.In a more probable SHTF scenario, such as economic collapse, cities will still be population centers. Those who are still employed will still need to go to work to try to eek out a living, while those who have lost their jobs will probably struggle to scrape together some way to survive. This is where people get desperate. In a situation like this, its much more likely to get jumped by three desperate men with knives than getting ambushed by a squad of Blackwater mercs with ARs. Also in a situation like this, walking (you think there will be gas? that you can afford?) to work/store/whatever with a shotgun slung on your back will certainly get the attention of whatever true badasses are in the area, IE gangs, military and police, and the aforementioned private security. To these groups, a man with a visible gun will be seen as a threat and will be confronted and dealt with. The man with a concealed gun can walk to work without the attention, but still have the ability to fight off those 3 knife-wielding thugs. The man with the handgun may also be able to defend against a better prepared foe, at least well enough to make a retreat. Cont... 2 out of 3 found this valuable. Do you? |
