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toxic_shock
toxic_shock
60. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun.
Feb 22 2012, 2:38 AM EST | Post edited: Feb 22 2012, 2:39 AM EST
Cont..

I fully agree there is no end all be all survival gun, and that anyone who calls themselves a halfway prepared individual will have a selection of firearms (where applicable) that can serve different purposes. But I'm in the camp that believes the most important firearm you can own is one you can always have with you. My metropolitan area is home to some 300k inhabitants, so while not huge I can defiantly see where LJ is coming from and agree with his logic of maintaining a low profile.
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LJ126
LJ126
61. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun.
Feb 22 2012, 11:34 AM EST | Post edited: Feb 22 2012, 12:01 PM EST
Toxic_Shock NAILED it!

There are only very specific scenarios when everything goes to crap really fast, but in most of the realistic situations, it takes time for things to get bad. If a nuclear weapon went off in a big city, while the effect at the epicenter would be immediate, surrounding areas would progressively get worse over the span of a few weeks. EMP, same thing. People get crazy when the food and water run out. Viral pandemic or large outbreaks of bubonic plague (yes, it still exists!) take TIME. Toxic_Shock points to civil unrest due to economic collapse, and that's another fine example of things collapsing slowly and life getting progressively harder for everyone.

This might come as a shock to some people, but I don't believe in zombies *ever* happening. Love the movies, but I don't let my imagination take control. When I'm talking about self-defense, I'm referring to folks like you and me that have gotten desperate. I presume they are well armed, extremely sharp, possibly prior military, and possibly have kids at home. When they get desperate, you need to watch out. Superior firepower is NOT the answer.

Something Jim pointed out (erroneously) is that someone in my line of thinking is "looking" for a fight, and nothing could be further from the truth. I'm advocating LOW PROFILE life, laying low, and keeping that weapon totally concealed until you have no other alternative. People who do not live in town don't realize is that there are a LOT of people around you at any one point in time and they all pay attention to what's going on around them.They all have eyes and ears, and most of them are pretty intelligent. They will remember things that stand out to them. You do not want to be that thing that stands out any more than you have to be. It only takes one mistake to become "that guy at the end of the cul-de-sac with the cool looking gear."

Continued:
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LJ126
LJ126
62. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun.
Feb 22 2012, 11:44 AM EST | Post edited: Feb 22 2012, 11:45 AM EST
LWJ_2009 points out that golf courses are a good potential source of food. The reason they are is because there are generally decent-sized bodies of water on them, and this pond attracts wildlife. Large fountains and ponds do the same thing. Don't you guys think that other folks will realize that all the Canada geese show up there and consider going for a meal too? I'm not saying it's an option, but maybe that the wrong place to whip out a rifle to get dinner? Remember, folks remember that.

Besides, I am not a particularly fast runner and I can chase down and snatch a goose before it takes flight. Gimme a knife (not that I need it...) and I'll make you a meal. A person relying on this source of food for meat would be behooved to practice throwing nets or learn to construct and use a bola, aka boleadora. A firearm of ANY type is the wrong tool for the job in a densely populated area.

You know what the recurring theme I'm seeing here is? Its that some folks who live out in the sticks are actually *too dependent* on their weapons. They are missing or ignoring other opportunities to obtain meals, preferring to rely on a different weapon to do each job. The ways I'm suggesting are more work but very often are superior and don't raise any eyebrows.
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LJ126
LJ126
63. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun.
Feb 22 2012, 11:58 AM EST | Post edited: Feb 22 2012, 11:58 AM EST
The real point here is that while different firearms serve different purposes, a skilled survivalist does not need the extra baggage and weight of a whole slew firearms and can often get by without them. A defensive handgun that you have mastered should be more than adequate to do the job of self-protection. Obviously, a large scale home invasion really requires more, but that's a topic for a different discussion. Everything else can be achieved without a firearm and in some situations that's preferential. I'd be happy to list the different ways but it'd take way more than 2000 characters...

Another big point I'm trying to make - I'm not saying don't own a battery of different firearms -- I'm saying learn to live as if you didn't. More guns is good but don't become dependent on them to live. They're NOT always the right answer.

Another key point - Not everyone has a highly-stocked, long-term bug-out location. Even those of you who do should be ready to handle the situation that it is totally unavailable to you. What are you gonna do if that place is occupied by some folks that are far more numerous and better armed? What are you gonna do if you get there and it's picked completely clean? What are you gonna do if it's smoldering ash? What are you gonna do if you simply cannot get to it? Now you're in the same boat as that urban dweller -- with access to possibly even fewer resources. I hope you have a backup plan.

I realize I haven't been super clear throughout this thread because it's a BIG topic and it flies in the face of traditional survival philosophy. However, I believe that in my situation and in the situation of anyone who lives in a city or large town, my "Lay Low & Thrive" mentality is appropriate. Those of you who plan to run checkpoints on your street whilst wearing LBE and black rifles are just asking to have problems.
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LWJ2009
LWJ2009
64. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun.
Feb 22 2012, 12:04 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 22 2012, 12:04 PM EST
I would pay to see you chase down an unwounded Goose and strangle it. A throwing net is not going to get you very far either. Watching somebody such as you try to run down a Goose would raise some eyebrows, and it would be pure entertainment.

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Sharpie41
Sharpie41
65. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun.
Feb 22 2012, 12:12 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 22 2012, 12:12 PM EST
"I would pay to see you chase down an unwounded Goose and strangle it. A throwing net is not going to get you very far either. Watching somebody such as you try to run down a Goose would raise some eyebrows, and it would be pure entertainment.

"
Geese need a bit of a run to take flight, so if you got to them fast enough or surprised it you could kill it.

But I agree, seeing someone do that would be hilarious
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LJ126
LJ126
66. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun.
Feb 22 2012, 12:17 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 22 2012, 12:20 PM EST
"I would pay to see you chase down an unwounded Goose and strangle it. A throwing net is not going to get you very far either. Watching somebody such as you try to run down a Goose would raise some eyebrows, and it would be pure entertainment.

"
I've done it. It's not pretty but it's not particularly challenging to do either. City geese let you get right up on them, almost within arms reach. It's probably be possible to bait them in with balled bread or seeds, maybe even some other grub.

Look, we're talking survival. This ain't a sport. It's dirty, gritty and it requires you to get in touch with a part of you that is far less domesticated. It also requires a little bit of ingenuity to be successful. It ain't a pretty process and at times, it's going to be hilarious from the outside. However, the guy who laughs last is the one with a plate full of dinner. Write it off if you want.
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LWJ2009
LWJ2009
67. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun.
Feb 22 2012, 12:34 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 22 2012, 12:34 PM EST
"I've done it. It's not pretty but it's not particularly challenging to do either. City geese let you get right up on them, almost within arms reach. It's probably be possible to bait them in with balled bread or seeds, maybe even some other grub.

Look, we're talking survival. This ain't a sport. It's dirty, gritty and it requires you to get in touch with a part of you that is far less domesticated. It also requires a little bit of ingenuity to be successful. It ain't a pretty process and at times, it's going to be hilarious from the outside. However, the guy who laughs last is the one with a plate full of dinner. Write it off if you want."
How long are they going to let you get up to them when they are not being fed? With a .22 I could have a weeks worth of dinner, while your beaten to death with its wings.
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shadowmancer
shadowmancer
68. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun.
Feb 22 2012, 12:38 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 22 2012, 12:41 PM EST
"Geese need a bit of a run to take flight, so if you got to them fast enough or surprised it you could kill it.

But I agree, seeing someone do that would be hilarious"
depends on where the geese are and what they're used to lol oh oh i could tell you some stories about UC hill otherwise known as the Great Poop Shoot if its in a urban setting you can walk right up to them and grab them among other things.Urbanised Geese are as dumb as grouse. They are bloody theives too. In a wilderness well there's more of a problem but not impossible to get them with crude weapons. You have to remember people were hunting geese and other birds way before firearms.
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shadowmancer
shadowmancer
69. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun.
Feb 22 2012, 12:46 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 22 2012, 1:21 PM EST
The geese at UC hill have stayed there due to feeding for 40 years at Western despite attempts to remove them as well as culling them. Every year UC hill is covered in goose poop every damn year it smells and is slippery for some buildings there was no choice but to go through the poo. They stopped being fed long long ago they started stealing and forraging for food, yet they stayed. Because they were arround people constantly for years they become stupid as hell in an urban setting lol they are like rats lol I don't mean to sound like mocking you or poking fun or anything can't convay tone very well here im just saying I hate those damn geese lol they're everywhere, its the only thing i don't miss from Western. My best friend Nick would grab them three or four while they were in season and just snap their necks in one swoop. He can hunt and fish where and when he pleases.... damn him I agree it's something to see and god it got a lot of protests from the hippies and hipsters back on campus. lol okay to stop with the "lecture" i'll tell you a funny story this occured in my final year at Western. A friend of mine was dumping his girlfriend and decided to meet her on the top of U.C. Hill she makes the long trek arround not going up the slip and slide sidewalks well they're at the top and she starts flipping out at him. She was kind of a spaz. well she starts shoving him and well ends up sliding the whole length of the hill getting covered in goose poop as she slid down the hill. he just calls out "guess your having a crappy day" and walked off. If that wasn't funny either you had to be there or i have a twisted sense of humour or i told it poorly ah well damn you text for not convaying tone!!! Do you find this valuable?    
LJ126
LJ126
70. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun.
Feb 22 2012, 2:32 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 22 2012, 2:34 PM EST
"How long are they going to let you get up to them when they are not being fed? With a .22 I could have a weeks worth of dinner, while your beaten to death with its wings."
And you're also getting noticed every single time you squeeze your trigger - good luck storing weeks worth of dinner without power.

On a side note, a 30 pound goose isn't going to beat any human to death with its wings - you need to watch the bill. That hurts, and they bite. Not a big issue if you act quickly though. But you're missing the forest for the trees here. A firearm is not the sole way to obtain food; if anything, modern hunting and fishing techniques are less effective because sporting ethics make it more challenging. Ever heard of tickling or gaffing? They're illegal in a lot of places because they are much more effective than a rod and bait. Traps are very effective in a town setting for a multitude of reasons, and while they're complicated to construct, you can purchase them as well - though this is often also illegal because of its effectiveness.

A firearm is not the only answer for food. In fact, in the city, it's the worst if you're trying to keep a low profile. How many times and in how many different ways do I need to spell that out?
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LWJ2009
LWJ2009
71. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun.
Feb 22 2012, 2:57 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 22 2012, 2:57 PM EST
"And you're also getting noticed every single time you squeeze your trigger - good luck storing weeks worth of dinner without power.

On a side note, a 30 pound goose isn't going to beat any human to death with its wings - you need to watch the bill. That hurts, and they bite. Not a big issue if you act quickly though. But you're missing the forest for the trees here. A firearm is not the sole way to obtain food; if anything, modern hunting and fishing techniques are less effective because sporting ethics make it more challenging. Ever heard of tickling or gaffing? They're illegal in a lot of places because they are much more effective than a rod and bait. Traps are very effective in a town setting for a multitude of reasons, and while they're complicated to construct, you can purchase them as well - though this is often also illegal because of its effectiveness.

A firearm is not the only answer for food. In fact, in the city, it's the worst if you're trying to keep a low profile. How many times and in how many different ways do I need to spell that out?"
Its a saying, find me a 30 pound Goose LJ. I have dispatched many of the creatures and the best way to do it is not to strangle them. I could use a 9 iron, if I could get close enough and not spook them away. Or I could just stay back about 20 feet and plug a good half dozen. More bang for the buck. Mr LJ ever hard of the concept of jerky? Or if your in a state like mine the frost line? If I dig deep enough into the ground I have an instant freezer.

Perhaps you can try Greek next?
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LJ126
LJ126
72. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun.
Feb 22 2012, 3:09 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 22 2012, 3:13 PM EST
"Its a saying, find me a 30 pound Goose LJ. I have dispatched many of the creatures and the best way to do it is not to strangle them. I could use a 9 iron, if I could get close enough and not spook them away. Or I could just stay back about 20 feet and plug a good half dozen. More bang for the buck. Mr LJ ever hard of the concept of jerky? Or if your in a state like mine the frost line? If I dig deep enough into the ground I have an instant freezer.

Perhaps you can try Greek next?"
Humans have been around for a REALLY long time, but the firearm in any form that we would recognize is only about 500 years. We lasted a long time quite well without them. Reliance upon them is not "survival" because when your ammunition runs out, you are out of luck.

Regarding the honker, the reason I said "30 pound goose" is because even one that size wouldn't, to quote you, "beat you to death with its wings." Additionally, nobody said strangle the goose -- only a fool would try that. Break it's freaking neck with your hands or cut its head off with your pocket knife. Or pin it and have someone else stomp it's head in. Shoot it with an arrow. Use a brick on it's delicate skull. Break its wings and drag it home by its neck alive. You need to get in touch with a more primal "you" if you expect to put food on your plate without a firearm.

BTW, I was born in Maine and I know about "cold," I have made jerky for the last 4 years at home in both the oven and a food dehydrator and you need to drop the attitude. It is not appropriate.

A firearm (one which you don't even own) isn't going to solve all of your problems. How do you not see that?
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LWJ2009
LWJ2009
73. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun.
Feb 22 2012, 3:28 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 22 2012, 3:28 PM EST
"Humans have been around for a REALLY long time, but the firearm in any form that we would recognize is only about 500 years. We lasted a long time quite well without them. Reliance upon them is not "survival" because when your ammunition runs out, you are out of luck.

Regarding the honker, the reason I said "30 pound goose" is because even one that size wouldn't, to quote you, "beat you to death with its wings." Additionally, nobody said strangle the goose -- only a fool would try that. Break it's freaking neck with your hands or cut its head off with your pocket knife. Or pin it and have someone else stomp it's head in. Shoot it with an arrow. Use a brick on it's delicate skull. Break its wings and drag it home by its neck alive. You need to get in touch with a more primal "you" if you expect to put food on your plate without a firearm.

BTW, I was born in Maine and I know about "cold," I have made jerky for the last 4 years at home in both the oven and a food dehydrator and you need to drop the attitude. It is not appropriate.

A firearm (one which you don't even own) isn't going to solve all of your problems. How do you not see that?
"
Do you know about cold or do you remember it? Last I remembered you were in a warm weather location. No attitude LJ, just don't and will not concede to your thought process. Now about that Greek?
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LJ126
LJ126
74. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun.
Feb 22 2012, 3:39 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 22 2012, 3:40 PM EST
"Do you know about cold or do you remember it? Last I remembered you were in a warm weather location. No attitude LJ, just don't and will not concede to your thought process. Now about that Greek? "
Without going into my whole life story, I have been snowed in more than once. I actually only recently moved to Texas, but I've lived in cold weather areas for the majority of my lifetime. Shoveled my fair share of driveways, let's just put it that way. Until recently, I lived in Saint Louis for about 12 years, which while not being the coldest place in the world, it does get a good mix of hot as hell, and cold, wintery crappy. I've seen just about everything that North America gets thrown at it in terms of weather in my lifetime.

Additionally, I don't expect everyone to concede to my thought process, or even understand my position. That's fine too. There are a lot of different "right" ways to do things. But if you expect to survive in an urban, or even moderate-sized town setting, you need to blend in - that much is universal. It's not fancy or exciting, but it works. Things that don't work end up costing you greatly. Remember, you're only gambling with your life. Gonna play that game in a risky way or not? Doesn't matter to me which you choose.
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LWJ2009
LWJ2009
75. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun.
Feb 22 2012, 3:45 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 22 2012, 3:45 PM EST
"Without going into my whole life story, I have been snowed in more than once. I actually only recently moved to Texas, but I've lived in cold weather areas for the majority of my lifetime. Shoveled my fair share of driveways, let's just put it that way. Until recently, I lived in Saint Louis for about 12 years, which while not being the coldest place in the world, it does get a good mix of hot as hell, and cold, wintery crappy. I've seen just about everything that North America gets thrown at it in terms of weather in my lifetime.

Additionally, I don't expect everyone to concede to my thought process, or even understand my position. That's fine too. There are a lot of different "right" ways to do things. But if you expect to survive in an urban, or even moderate-sized town setting, you need to blend in - that much is universal. It's not fancy or exciting, but it works. Things that don't work end up costing you greatly. Remember, you're only gambling with your life. Gonna play that game in a risky way or not? Doesn't matter to me which you choose."
A quick exposure that is in and out, or spending alot of time doing the same thing I could do in 5 minutes. Your right though life is a risk. The more your out checking traps or doing things the old fashioned way, the more your prone to be noticed by other watchful eyes.
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LJ126
LJ126
76. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun.
Feb 22 2012, 3:56 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 22 2012, 3:56 PM EST
"A quick exposure that is in and out, or spending alot of time doing the same thing I could do in 5 minutes. Your right though life is a risk. The more your out checking traps or doing things the old fashioned way, the more your prone to be noticed by other watchful eyes. "
.... uh huh.
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LWJ2009
LWJ2009
77. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun.
Feb 22 2012, 4:10 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 22 2012, 4:10 PM EST
".... uh huh."
Yup but then again your a big city boy who knows best.
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TreeLegs
TreeLegs
78. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun.
Feb 22 2012, 4:10 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 22 2012, 4:10 PM EST
"City geese let you get right up on them..."
Too true. Sea gulls around here will sit on the bench and wait for you to feed them by hand here sometimes. Most of the "wildlife" in the city are so urbanized it's insane. You can't hunt inside city limits and they know that apparently. They seem to think you're there to feed them.

Nets, arrows and spears have been used to take birds before. It's honestly not as hard as you think. You know what's hard? Hunting rabbits in the wild with rocks. Did it out in Colorado a couple of times. Still that wasn't as hard as you might think if you do it in teams.

I'm all in with LJ on this one. I've lived in the country and now I stay in the city. Not the best part either. Matter of fact, some guy just lost a gunfight with the local PD in my apartment complex last week.

Won't pull punches here, but I'm one of the few white guys in this place. You know why I'm not worried? Because I help my neighbors with their groceries and trash. I talk to them, give them the greeting of the day and help them when I can and they do the same for me. I've pretty much become part of the community and now if I want to go take a walk at midnight, I do it because now I "blend in".

The funniest thing about it is that I can't get my old "good ol boy" friends to come out here because of all the rumors about how "dangerous" it is out here.

Be nice, mind your manners and don't be stupid and you wont have much to worry about.

About golf courses:
I could see these places getting hit hard when SHTF. Would I want to ransack an apartment in the hood or a house at a golf course. Hell I might just move in. LWJ just said there is food and water there right? Sounds like a good idea for a non-preper. Don't expect to be the only one with the same idea.
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LWJ2009
LWJ2009
79. RE: The Best General-Purpose Survival Firearm is a Good Handgun.
Feb 22 2012, 5:20 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 22 2012, 5:20 PM EST
Don't forget the Beer golf courses are loaded with the stuff..... Do you find this valuable?    
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