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Discussion: weight misconecptions.
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bolvark |
weight misconecptions.
Feb 23 2012, 12:52 AM EST
it seams common misconception is weight of different weapons.for some reason blunt weapons have gotten a stigma for begin insanely heavy when compared to counter parts in ranged and blades. example katana at ~ 3lb and double bit ax 3.5lb sledge 6 lb 3 lb is the difference between a weapon viewed as light agile and one that will put you of balance and take forever to recover. also inserting to note an sks is 8.5 lb i have a few reason this misconception might have occurred. 1 people mistake wood chopping and splinting for actually battle strikes 2 most of the times people see a katan used it by some on you has had a lot of training. 3 (which i hope is true) the wiki has become full of weak couch potatoes. 6 out of 12 found this valuable. Do you? |
Sharpie41 |
1. RE: weight misconecptions.
Feb 23 2012, 1:00 AM EST
"it seams common misconception is weight of different weapons.Ounces=pounds, and pounds=pain. Yes an SKS is 8.5 lbs, but I ain't gonna be swinging the damn thing 6 out of 6 found this valuable. Do you? |
TreeLegs |
2. RE: weight misconecptions.
Feb 23 2012, 1:00 AM EST
Think it's more about center of balance. That axe has all the weight at the end while the katana has it distributed along it's length. Pick up the ax and try to do what you would do with a katana and you'll see what I'm refering to.
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bolvark |
3. RE: weight misconecptions.
Feb 23 2012, 1:12 AM EST
done it quite a few times you got a point with the weight distribution. sword hacking and ax hacking are very different. sword hacking you don't have to take care with you momentum ax hacking it starts to matter. think i might ultimately be the katana issue the one about lack of skill thus makes it a bad weapon. weighted wepons would fall into simalr problems.
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White76Knight |
4. RE: weight misconecptions.
Feb 23 2012, 9:58 AM EST
"Think it's more about center of balance. That axe has all the weight at the end while the katana has it distributed along it's length. Pick up the ax and try to do what you would do with a katana and you'll see what I'm refering to. "TreeLegs has the right of it. Measure the overall length of a katana from the butt of the handle to the tip of the blade, then divide that measurement by two to find the exact midpoint. Now balance that katana over your finger and see whether the balance point is anywhere near that midpoint. The katana will balance very near to the tsuba (cross guard). Now try the same experiment with an axe or a sledge hammer. Obviously they will balance somewhere right out near the head, so not only does neither weapon balance at the measured midpoint, but the katana vs the sledge will actually balance at opposite ends of the weapon. This difference in weight distribution will make a huge difference in how long you can realistically swing that weapon (especially if, heaven forbid, you are forced to do so one handed) without having muscle fatigue influence your ability to do so. Do you find this valuable? |
PedroAsani |
5. RE: weight misconecptions.
Feb 23 2012, 11:13 AM EST
"done it quite a few times you got a point with the weight distribution. sword hacking and ax hacking are very different. sword hacking you don't have to take care with you momentum ax hacking it starts to matter. think i might ultimately be the katana issue the one about lack of skill thus makes it a bad weapon. weighted wepons would fall into simalr problems. "Lack of skill? You show it with the word 'hacking'. You hack with Medieval swords. You cut with a katana. Because it isn't a simple case of swinging the blade through the target; You have to combine the swing with a pulling motion that draws the length of the blade along the target, cutting it open with the edge rather than the weight of the blade as with a broadsword. 3 out of 3 found this valuable. Do you? |
LJ126 |
6. RE: weight misconecptions.
Feb 23 2012, 11:54 AM EST
| Post edited: Feb 23 2012, 11:56 AM EST
Actually, you don't really even hack or chop with medieval swords, though this is (erroneously) how combat has been depicted with them. They're very specialized tools and many are every bit as graceful and lively as the finest Japanese swords. By the end of the 13th century, manuscripts were written all of Europe relating to the use of sword and shield - and likely before, but manuscripts from before then on sword combat didn't survive. There's clear evidence that combat training with the sword in Europe had reached nearly the same level of specialization that the samurai were receiving by this point. The difference is that one has had a level of Eastern mysticism applied to it whereas another hasn't. http://www.thearma.org/manuals.htm (I.33 is particularly interesting.) Classical fencing is a martial art, designed to kill. The sport we see in the Olympics is based off of it, and is a much bastardized form that hardly represents combat. One can logically deduce that if European cultures developed an art like classical fence during a time of decreasing dependence on the sword as a weapon for war, that when it was the primary arm, the same (or possibly more) emphasis was placed on it's use. It's a shame that there aren't older texts to enlighten us about this. 3 out of 3 found this valuable. Do you? |
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White76Knight |
7. RE: weight misconecptions.
Feb 23 2012, 12:29 PM EST
"Actually, you don't really even hack or chop with medieval swords, though this is (erroneously) how combat has been depicted with them. They're very specialized tools and many are every bit as graceful and lively as the finest Japanese swords. "I agree. There is every bit as much of a finely tuned martial art to the use of the European sword as there is to the use of the katana and other eastern weapons. In addition to the eastern mysticism, there is also the portrayal of the media. The traditional kung fu film, samurai film, or other films portraying eastern martial arts always show a predictable sequence. Good guy gets whupped by bad guy, good guy finds some wise ancient master who trains them and trains them and trains them in precise technique with rigorous discipline, then good guy goes out and whups bad guy. You very rarely see that in a european style film. In fact, I don't recall EVER seeing that in a film that depicted european styles of arms and armor. We always see the hero AFTER he has already been trained or has lots of experience. Or worse, he stumbles on an old rusted sword, picks it up, then magically knows how to use it, easily defeating all the trained and battle hardened henchmen that the villain cares to throw at him. Those who don't know better are then left thinking that eastern fighting styles require years of training, practice and discipline, whereas european fighting styles are just a matter of picking up the weapon and killing the bad guys. It ain't so. 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
Uzzgub |
8. RE: weight misconecptions.
Feb 23 2012, 2:09 PM EST
"You very rarely see that in a european style film. In fact, I don't recall EVER seeing that in a film that depicted european styles of arms and armor. We always see the hero AFTER he has already been trained or has lots of experience. Or worse, he stumbles on an old rusted sword, picks it up, then magically knows how to use it, easily defeating all the trained and battle hardened henchmen that the villain cares to throw at him. "The only film I can think of where it has some training for the European fighting style was shown, for about 2 mins, was Kingdom of Haven, good old Orlando Bloom was shown how to do 1 strike with the longsword, and then he became the best fighter in the Christian Army 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
brandon_a_boyer |
9. RE: weight misconecptions.
Feb 23 2012, 2:14 PM EST
There is actually quite a bit of interesting physics behind weapons. Mass, arc length, velocity. It's quite a bit of fun to think about.One point I would argue for axes. The majority of people consider axes to be unwieldy simply because they aren't balanced in the same way a sword would be. However you don't have to keep your hands at the base of the handle the entire time. Simply sliding one hand up towards the business end would be enough to gain quite a bit of control. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P32JDvu0b-0&feature=related watch the way he slides his hand down the shaft midway through the swing, this still gives the axe enough time to accelerate while still offering good control (I use the term control loosely as he almost catches his foot at the 2:06 mark). Remember too that with an axe you aren't simply limited to chopping motions, thrusts, hooks, even swings with the handle can all be very effective. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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bolvark |
10. RE: weight misconecptions.
Feb 23 2012, 3:07 PM EST
theirs some things a weight weapon can do that a bladed cant. thinking in terms of knocking zeds out of the way or at lest off coarse and armored helms(a posible thread idea) also if someone could find info on short and long sword training
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Uzzgub |
11. RE: weight misconecptions.
Feb 23 2012, 3:41 PM EST
"There is actually quite a bit of interesting physics behind weapons. Mass, arc length, velocity. It's quite a bit of fun to think about.I did read one book about axes that said that its more of a predictive fighting style, so you had to be thinking 3/4 'steps' ahead of your opponent (and remember if there alive they should be thinking 2/3 ahead normally) so about 6/7 'steps', and it recommended playing games like chess to help you encouraging the right thinking processes. Now how true this is I don't know as I haven't been trained in how to use axes other then cutting logs, but I thought this might be a good place to ask if its true. It also talks about how to get maximum force for minimum swing, depending on where you place your hands, but it was a long time ago when I read the book Do you find this valuable? |
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brandon_a_boyer |
12. RE: weight misconecptions.
Feb 23 2012, 4:13 PM EST
Force with an axe is all about it's acceleration before it hits the target. Since we are dealing with rotational motion you have to look at the length from the axis (your elbow) and the arc (the axe head)For the sake of argument, let's say my arms are 3 feet long, I hold an axe blade in my hand and swing it downward in a chopping motion through a 90 degree angle. It's moving a distance of R0, R being the radius or length of my arms, and O being the angle in radians(90 degrees = Pi/2 radians). If you put a three foot axe in my hands then you are doubling the radius, meaning the distance the axe head travels will be twice as far. But even though the axe head is moving 2x the distance, I still make the swing in the same period of time which means that the velocity will be 2x as much with the handle than it would be in my hand. Do you find this valuable? |
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zombie0human156 |
13. RE: weight misconecptions.
Feb 23 2012, 4:24 PM EST
"theirs some things a weight weapon can do that a bladed cant. thinking in terms of knocking zeds out of the way or at lest off coarse and armored helms(a posible thread idea) also if someone could find info on short and long sword training"why would you knock the zeds out of the way. Remove the threat get rid of the zed. don't knock it away you only compound the problem if you are trying to escape then you have just knocked a zombie down it will get backup and follow you. Do you find this valuable? |
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knurled |
14. RE: weight misconecptions.
Feb 23 2012, 4:34 PM EST
To me weight can be a good thing depending on style and ability, this is why I like a good sledgehammer. I dont plan to stay in a hand-to-hand situation lon, I wanna hit hard once maybe twice and get out of dodge
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Zee-Man |
15. RE: weight misconecptions.
Feb 23 2012, 5:13 PM EST
Wrist strength makes a huge difference too. Most people do not develop wrist strength. Even athletes that depend on grip strength seldom have wrist strength developed. Trained swordsmen and axemen alike do develop this strength. Masons, mechanics, and smiths also have well developed wrist strength.When I was active in medieval recreation it was found remarkable that I could handle two handed weapons with ease using one hand. It was a natural talent as a mason and a smith. Fighting axes are not as unbalanced as some think. A wood axe is all head weight. Throwing axes having the same look as a wood axe have a very precise balance between head and handle. Battle axes such as those used by viking also have a balance. They are usually held no at the base of the handle, but at a point about 1/3 up. Some battle axes have a counterweight just like a swords pommel. Do you find this valuable? |
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LJ126 |
16. RE: weight misconecptions.
Feb 23 2012, 6:18 PM EST
Axes are awesome. I think it would be really interesting to make a study of their use in combat from the middle ages on, and in Native American systems with the tomahawk.Lynn Thomas (I think that's his name?) of Cold Steel wrote a tutorial on the use of tomahawks for defensive purposes, I'd be happy to link that if anyone would wanna read it. Do you find this valuable? |
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Zee-Man |
17. RE: weight misconecptions.
Feb 23 2012, 6:27 PM EST
"Lynn Thomas (I think that's his name?) of Cold Steel wrote a tutorial on the use of tomahawks for defensive purposes, I'd be happy to link that if anyone would wanna read it."Yes please Do you find this valuable? |
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TreeLegs |
18. RE: weight misconecptions.
Feb 23 2012, 6:35 PM EST
"They're very specialized tools and many are every bit as graceful and lively as the finest Japanese swords. "I knew a guy once that was a martial artist and most of the training he did was in martial arts. He decided to see if eatern techniques would apply to western weapons and what do you know? Worked almost flawlessly. He said the biggest issue he came accross, was the difference in weight distribution and the double edge design on some of the weapons. I'm not sure where people get this idea that using a Katana is harder than using a Hand and a Half sword. You can do nearly the exact same thing with one as the other. Would you treat a dagger and a tanto any different in a fight? Remember, these weapons were once the M16's and AK-47's of their day. Soldiers trained hard with them constantly and through experience, learned what is the most effective way to get the job done. It's not just swinging steel. It's sweeps, feigns, parrys, throws, disarms all with swinging that steel. Though you can treat them like sharpened steel baseball bats and probably not have a problem with killing zeds, people don't fight like zeds do and it's best to get some training before you plan on taking them on as such. Do you find this valuable? |
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TreeLegs |
19. RE: weight misconecptions.
Feb 23 2012, 6:39 PM EST
"Axes are awesome. I think it would be really interesting to make a study of their use in combat from the middle ages on, and in Native American systems with the tomahawk.Lynn Thompson. Yeah that guy is nuts lol. Do you find this valuable? |
