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Discussion: Looking at the Details of Melee Weapons Effectiveness and Tactics.

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TreeLegs	Looking at the Details of Melee Weapons Effectiveness and Tactics. Feb 25 2012, 10:56 PM EST After doing some research and talking it over with my Army medic friend, we came to these conclutions concerning melee combat and weapons centered around Zeds. Blunt force trauma does a majority of it's damage to the Cervical Vertabrae and not the skull. If you don't count the damage to a normal human brain from pressure and such, the only other way to kill from a blunt force injury, is to damage the Brain Stem or a portion of the Cervical Spinal Column, stopping the nerves from relaying information to the rest of the body, neutralizing the threat. Penetrating skull injuries would have to travel deep enough to hit the BS or CSC. This is hampered by the resistance the bone places on the object during penetration, the hardness of the skull and the flexability of the neck. He recomended something like the claw side of a hammer with speed and acutness being the largest factor. Injuries sustained from long bladed weapons would have to do the same. Recomended just going for decapitation. His primary target would be the dorsal side of C3-C5 (mid-neck) with something dense, inflexable and of a small diameter. Lateral attacks would be second as there are less muscles to resist the blow. Blows to the front or uppercuts are third because of the whiplash effect. Lastly, downward strikes as the force needed would have to be much more than the others. With heavy mass weapons (sledgehammer, etc...) a downward strike to the top of the head would crush the CV and BS by shear transfer of force. Besides HMW's, most of the attacks would use the added stress of the skull's weight to assist in damaging the CV and BS. I believe the information presented shines some light on a lot of the "myths of melee" I've heard tossed around. Post reply 3 out of 4 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you? Keyword tags: Fighting Survival Weapons Zombies
White76Knight	1. RE: Looking at the Details of Melee Weapons Effectiveness and Tactics. Feb 25 2012, 11:18 PM EST For those who are unaware, this was cross posted from another thread, in which I replied: "No disrespect intended to your Army Medic buddy, but I'm not sure that these conclusions are entirely sound, or at least not the one about penetrating skull injuries. I don't think that such an injury would actually have to travel deep enough, in and of itself, to hit the brain stem or cervical spinal column, especially not in the case of blunt force weapons. Something that concentrates a large amount of force into a small area, like a hammer, will often pop out a section of the skull corresponding to the shape of the striking surface, driving that section into the brain. Sort of like this: http://www.nlm.nih.gov/visibleproofs/galleries/exhibition/body_image_2.html Various autopsy photos of such injuries that I saw on google didn't seem to have that section knocked very far into the skull. A few didn't even penetrate the skull entirely at all, but instead were only depression fractures, yet these were enough to be fatal." Post reply 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
White76Knight	2. RE: Looking at the Details of Melee Weapons Effectiveness and Tactics. Feb 25 2012, 11:18 PM EST And TreeLegs responded: "Actually we had quite a debate about this. What we decided on was pretty much this... Wikipedia... A penetrating head injury, or open head injury, is a head injury in which the dura mater, the outer layer of the meninges, is breached.[1] Penetrating injury can be caused by high-velocity projectiles or objects of lower velocity such as knives, or bone fragments from a skull fracture that are driven into the brain. A perforating head injury is one in which the object passes through the head and leaves an exit wound.[2] Head injuries caused by penetrating trauma are serious medical emergencies and may cause permanent disability or death. The hammer's blow would now be classified as a penetrating weapon." Post reply Do you find this valuable?
White76Knight	3. RE: Looking at the Details of Melee Weapons Effectiveness and Tactics. Feb 25 2012, 11:22 PM EST \| Post edited: Feb 25 2012, 11:28 PM EST I agree completely. The hammer's blow would now be classified as a penetrating weapon, but that doesn't change the fact that the hammer itself need not penetrate that far into the skull for the blow to be fatal. Whether the damage to the brain is in the end inflicted by the weapon itself, by skull fragments driven into the brain by the weapon, or by concussion from the force of the impact, dead is dead, no? As long as any one of these factors, or any combination thereof, has occurred, then the end result remains the same. Bearing in mind that this does not only relate to hammers, but also to axes, clubs/maces, 2x4's, lead pipes, rocks, and so on, the question then becomes, how much force is necessary to cause any or all of these results? Preferably with a single blow if possible. This, of course, brings us back to your original thread. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
TreeLegs	4. RE: Looking at the Details of Melee Weapons Effectiveness and Tactics. Feb 25 2012, 11:37 PM EST The reason I started this research, was because I own a Cold Steel O Bokken and I wanted to see if it would be an effective melee weapon during the Zpoc. While I was trying to investigate different traumas to the skull and it's overall toughness, I became irritated at the lack of useable information I could find online and decided to consult my friend in the matter, as the military trains it's medical personnel extensivlely in head, neck and brain injuries. The information I gathered ended up expanding to all melee weapons and thought it would be a good topic to discuss as I believe some people have misconceptions on what it takes to hypothetically kill a Zed since you cant rely on head injuries behaving as they would to a living human being. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
TreeLegs	5. RE: Looking at the Details of Melee Weapons Effectiveness and Tactics. Feb 25 2012, 11:45 PM EST \| Post edited: Feb 25 2012, 11:47 PM EST "I agree completely. The hammer's blow would now be classified as a penetrating weapon, but that doesn't change the fact that the hammer itself need not penetrate that far into the skull for the blow to be fatal. Whether the damage to the brain is in the end inflicted by the weapon itself, by skull fragments driven into the brain by the weapon, or by concussion from the force of the impact, dead is dead, no? As long as any one of these factors, or any combination thereof, has occurred, then the end result remains the same. Bearing in mind that this does not only relate to hammers, but also to axes, clubs/maces, 2x4's, lead pipes, rocks, and so on, the question then becomes, how much force is necessary to cause any or all of these results? Preferably with a single blow if possible. This, of course, brings us back to your original thread." I agree if we were talking about a living human being and not a Zed. Most people I talk to see as only the Brain Stem being really active in a zombie. Since they don't bleed, most of the injuries to the skull and brain won't matter, as it is the brain trying to repair itself that causes the swelling associated with violent head injuries. Swelling, pressure and bleeding are what causes most of the fatalites seen in TBI's. This is all hypothetical of course. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
White76Knight	6. RE: Looking at the Details of Melee Weapons Effectiveness and Tactics. Feb 26 2012, 1:40 AM EST "I agree if we were talking about a living human being and not a Zed. Most people I talk to see as only the Brain Stem being really active in a zombie. Since they don't bleed, most of the injuries to the skull and brain won't matter, as it is the brain trying to repair itself that causes the swelling associated with violent head injuries. Swelling, pressure and bleeding are what causes most of the fatalites seen in TBI's. This is all hypothetical of course." Okay, now I understand the problem. In all of the movies and books that I have encountered concerning zombies, which as you say is all hypothetical of course, anything that damages/destroys the brain will do. There is no particular provision made for different parts of the brain, with one part resulting in a kill while another part does not. If this proves not to be the case, as well it might, then indeed other tactics and data may be called for. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
TreeLegs	7. RE: Looking at the Details of Melee Weapons Effectiveness and Tactics. Feb 26 2012, 2:17 AM EST "If this proves not to be the case, as well it might, then indeed other tactics and data may be called for." Well I figured the brain stem attack was a good target, because it is the only thing to target that will result in immediate death. You can shoot a guy in the head and he may still live(though would you really want to?) through the injury under the right circumstances. The case of Phineas Gage comes to mind... "On September 13, 1848, 25-year-old Gage was foreman of a work gang blasting rock while preparing the roadbed...one of Gage's duties was to add blasting powder, a fuse, and sand, then compact the charge into the hole using a tamping iron – a large iron rod...the powder exploded, carrying an instrument through his head an 1/4 diameter, and 3ft long...it entered on the side of his face...passing back of the left eye, and out at the top of the head" "Amazingly, Gage...walked with little or no assistance...sat upright in a cart for the 3⁄4-mile ride to...town. The first physician to arrive was Dr. Edward H. Williams: "I...noticed the wound upon the head...the pulsations of the brain being very distinct. Mr. Gage, during the time I was examining this wound, was relating the manner in which he was injured...I did not believe...Gage's statement at that time, but thought he was deceived...Mr. G. got up and vomited; the effort of vomiting pressed out about half a teacupful of the brain, which fell upon the floor. Dr. John Martyn Harlow took charge of the case about an hour later: ...the picture presented was, to one unaccustomed to military surgery, truly terrific; but the patient bore his sufferings with the most heroic firmness. He recognized me...and said he hoped he was not much hurt. He seemed to be perfectly conscious, but was getting exhausted from the hemorrhage. Pulse 60...regular. His person, and the bed on which he was laid, were literally one gore of blood. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
White76Knight	8. RE: Looking at the Details of Melee Weapons Effectiveness and Tactics. Feb 26 2012, 3:56 AM EST HOLY CRAP!!! Post reply Do you find this valuable?
TreeLegs	9. RE: Looking at the Details of Melee Weapons Effectiveness and Tactics. Feb 26 2012, 4:14 AM EST "HOLY CRAP!!!" Exactly lol. I learned about this in my psychology class in high school and never forgot it. If that's not a testament to the durability of the human body I don't know what is. That's why if I shoot at a target of a human head, I aim for the space between the bottom of the nose and the chin. Brain stem is pretty much right behind it. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
White76Knight	10. RE: Looking at the Details of Melee Weapons Effectiveness and Tactics. Feb 26 2012, 4:23 AM EST "Exactly lol. I learned about this in my psychology class in high school and never forgot it. If that's not a testament to the durability of the human body I don't know what is." Brother you ain't just whistling dixie. So what have we learned? Don't shoot them in the head, shoot them in the face (at least from the front), cause that's where all the important bits are hiding. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
TreeLegs	11. RE: Looking at the Details of Melee Weapons Effectiveness and Tactics. Feb 26 2012, 4:30 AM EST "Brother you ain't just whistling dixie. So what have we learned? Don't shoot them in the head, shoot them in the face (at least from the front), cause that's where all the important bits are hiding." That and center line with the throat. Severs the cervical spine and he aint moving any more. If you liked that you'll love this lol... "Cervical (neck) injuries usually result in full or partial tetraplegia (Quadriplegia). However, depending on the specific location and severity of trauma, limited function may be retained. Injuries at the C-1/C-2 levels will often result in loss of breathing, necessitating mechanical ventilators or phrenic nerve pacing. C3 vertebrae and above : Typically results in loss of diaphragm function, necessitating the use of a ventilator for breathing. C4 : Results in significant loss of function at the biceps and shoulders. C5 : Results in potential loss of function at the shoulders and biceps, and complete loss of function at the wrists and hands. C6 : Results in limited wrist control, and complete loss of hand function. C7 and T1 : Results in lack of dexterity in the hands and fingers, but allows for limited use of arms. Patients with complete injuries above C7 typically cannot handle activities of daily living and cannot function independently. Additional signs and symptoms of cervical injuries include: Inability or reduced ability to regulate heart rate, blood pressure, sweating and hence body temperature. Autonomic dysreflexia or abnormal increases in blood pressure, sweating, and other autonomic responses to pain or sensory disturbances. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
timberrattler	12. RE: Looking at the Details of Melee Weapons Effectiveness and Tactics. Feb 26 2012, 7:54 AM EST \| Post edited: Feb 26 2012, 7:55 AM EST http://www.zombiesurvivalwiki.com/photo/11348234/Timberhammer @TreeLegs, what do you think this would do and what tactics would you use? Post reply Do you find this valuable?
LJ126	13. RE: Looking at the Details of Melee Weapons Effectiveness and Tactics. Feb 26 2012, 8:10 AM EST \| Post edited: Feb 26 2012, 8:23 AM EST I can't level much on this discussion. it's largely beyond my scope of understanding and experience. However, I can add a little. When I was studying advanced personal defense and the atemi-waza components of jiu-jutsu, our class was directed to strike "debilitating" blows at or above the seventh cervical vertabrae and below the base of the skull when they were available (and obviously, when the situation dictated that sort of response.) Elbow strikes were advised, as well as palm and hammer fist strikes, unless a blunt-force weapon was available. The results would be, to quote both my sensei and our instructional material, "catastrophic" when delivered at full force. I think the reason that above the seventh CV was targeted is because it's an easily identified region as that CV is the big bulge at the top of one's back. Hence it's proper name, Vertebra prominens. It's a near-perfect anatomical bullseye. Add'l note: Timber's hammers are impressive, and I'm hoping to have future opportunity to smash more with them. Check out my preliminary review of two models. http://www.zombiesurvivalwiki.com/page/LJ126%27s+Review+of+the+Timberhammer Post reply Do you find this valuable?
cyrano222	14. RE: Looking at the Details of Melee Weapons Effectiveness and Tactics. Feb 26 2012, 8:49 AM EST Once and a while I help the loca butcher with hogs, now this is a very controlled enviorment to make it as humane as possible but I smash the back of their head with a sledge as they come to then end of a chute. I know I sever the spine from the medula and they drop dead immediatly. We then hang them and drain/ wash them. But a good solid strike with a sledge has dropped over a hundred hogs. Thats when the heavy work begins thank god for a back hoe. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
Zee-Man	15. RE: Looking at the Details of Melee Weapons Effectiveness and Tactics. Feb 26 2012, 11:22 AM EST \| Post edited: Feb 26 2012, 11:24 AM EST "http://www.zombiesurvivalwiki.com/photo/11348234/Timberhammer @TreeLegs, what do you think this would do and what tactics would you use?" TR after getting this info our target for the war hammer is the bottom of the ear. Blows here are going to impact the c1 to c3 vertebrae almost directly. The hammer end could hit at any point from the earlobe up with devastating damage. The higher up the more leverage to the spine, but also the more flexion can be taken up by the rest of the neck/spine. To get a picture of this action press your thumb forcefully against the side of your head. The bill of the hammer needs to be 3 to 5 inches long to penetrate to the medula. The medula is the part of the brain that does the voluntary muscle control. I have left the bill on my hammer at 9 inches to preserve the pun, but in a real sit I would shorten it to 5 inches. I would also point out that "misses" to this area can be pretty devastating also, at least to full humans. Perhaps less so to zeds. Edit: a pic of my Pipenir is on my profile page : ) Post reply Do you find this valuable?
TreeLegs	16. RE: Looking at the Details of Melee Weapons Effectiveness and Tactics. Feb 26 2012, 1:17 PM EST "@TreeLegs, what do you think this would do and what tactics would you use?" First of all TR, I like it lol. ZM is pretty much on point with his statment. I did some digging, and found that the dementions of the human brain's dimentions are; W-5.5", L-6.5", H-3.7". Looking at images of the head to the structures of the brain, we see that a penetrating blow to the temporal bone has the highest possible chance for BS destruction. A blow centered above and slightly behind the "ear hole" and level with the corner of the eye should hit the BS. I would suggest that a spike on a weapon be at least 5in long to account for resistannce of the bone on the spike and distance to the BS The blunt side looks pretty good. I would use it's width to strike at the spine for an increased chance of a hit. Hitting the side of the head, I would be hoping for the whipping action of the head to break or damage the CV. You could also target the side of the neck much as you would with a blade to decapitate the target. Unless there is some serious muscle structure around it, it should laterally sever the SC. Since the vertabrae have no real structures to allow this movement, it should be a violent break as long as they are struck hard. The head and upper portion of the neck will try to wrap itself around the weapon putting tremendous pressure on the CV. I think your hammer would handle the job nicely. Personally I would have the spike a little longer, but yours looks super sturdy. Once that spike penetrates that skull, the rest is more than likely going to follow it in lol. Sides of the head more towards the back. Sides of neck. Back of neck. Don't expect that the first blow will kill either. It might take 2 or 3 depending on the situation. That first blow however, will probably disable the target though. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
White76Knight	17. RE: Looking at the Details of Melee Weapons Effectiveness and Tactics. Feb 26 2012, 2:38 PM EST "Don't expect that the first blow will kill either. It might take 2 or 3 depending on the situation. That first blow however, will probably disable the target though." That's an important fact to bear in mind, no matter what weapon you're using. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
TreeLegs	18. RE: Looking at the Details of Melee Weapons Effectiveness and Tactics. Feb 26 2012, 3:48 PM EST "That's an important fact to bear in mind, no matter what weapon you're using." I would probably deal with a frontal attack like this with TR's hammer; Deflect the attack(grab, tackle, etc...). Sidestep beside the threat. Rotate my body to face the exposed side. Use rotational momentum to add power to swing. Target back of neck below skull. (Assuming the threat falls down at this point) Side of head blow to the temple bone above ear hole with the pointed side of the hammer(overhead blows could be substituted here as the combined force of the resistance of the floor surface and the hammer swing would help crush the skull). Repeat if neccisary. This is of course if there is room enough to do so. I can think of ten situations where that probably wouldn't work lol. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
TreeLegs	19. RE: Looking at the Details of Melee Weapons Effectiveness and Tactics. Feb 26 2012, 5:49 PM EST "Once and a while I help the loca butcher with hogs, now this is a very controlled enviorment to make it as humane as possible but I smash the back of their head with a sledge as they come to then end of a chute. I know I sever the spine from the medula and they drop dead immediatly. We then hang them and drain/ wash them. But a good solid strike with a sledge has dropped over a hundred hogs. Thats when the heavy work begins thank god for a back hoe." I wish I could disect one and see what it was that killed them. That would provide a bunch of useful info. I mean I know you're probably right, but I would like to see the details. Post reply Do you find this valuable?

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