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Discussion: Scout Rifles - "Swiss Army Knife" of Guns or Poor Compromise?

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LJ126	Scout Rifles - "Swiss Army Knife" of Guns or Poor Compromise? May 3 2012, 2:30 PM EDT \| Post edited: May 3 2012, 2:30 PM EDT Savage 10FCM Scout, Ruger Gunsite Scout, Steyr Scout, and the many homebrew or custom-made scouts... thoughts? Is Jeff Cooper's "Scout Rifle" concept and those weapons that follow it the go-to firearm for the zombie apocalypse, or is it little more than a poorly executed compromise of features that are in-fact limiting? Is the .308 caliber the most acceptable cartridge option (as Col. Cooper propounds) or is this of less importance than form? Should modern scout rifles strictly adhere to the original scout rifle concept, given late changes and advances in technology and metallurgy? Is a detachable magazine a requirement or are stripper clips adequate? If you were to build or purchase a scout rifle, would you follow the original Cooper specs or would you deviate from them? I'll share my opinion later, after a consensus on the scout rifle has been formed and a few other opinions are out there. I'm curious what y'all think! Post reply 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you? Keyword tags: custom do-it-all field head shot hunting IER intermediate eye relief LER long eye relief rifle scout scout rifle
brandon_a_boyer	1. RE: Scout Rifles - "Swiss Army Knife" of Guns or Poor Compromise? May 3 2012, 3:11 PM EDT \| Post edited: May 3 2012, 3:11 PM EDT I think most of the characteristics are beneficial in most situations. Here are Cooper's original definitions: An unloaded weight, with accessories, of 3 kg (6.6 lbs); with 3.5 kilograms (7.7 lbs) the maximum acceptable. An overall length of 1 meter (39.4 in.) or less. A forward-mounted telescopic sight of low magnification, typically 2-3 diameters. This preserves the shooter's peripheral vision, keeps the ejection port open to allow the use of stripper clips to reload the rifle, and eliminates any chance of the scope striking one's brow during recoil. Cooper has stated that a telescopic sight is not mandatory. Ghost ring auxiliary iron sights: a rear sight consisting of a receiver-mounted large-aperture thin ring, and typically a square post front sight. A "Ching" or "CW" sling. Against common practice, Cooper advocated the use of a sling as a shooting aid. The Ching sling offers the convenience of a carrying strap and the steadiness of a target shooter's sling with the speed of a biathlete's sling. (The CW sling is a simpler version of a Ching sling, consisting of a single strap.) A standard chambering of .308 Winchester/7.62x51mm NATO or 7mm-08 Remington for locales that forbid civilian ownership of cartridges in chamberings adopted by military forces or for its "slightly better ballistics."[2] As Cooper wrote, "A true Scout comes in .308 or 7mm-08."[3] The .243 Winchester is an alternative for young, small-framed, or recoil-shy people, but needs a 22" barrel. Cooper also commissioned "Lion Scout," chambered for the .350 Remington Magnum cartridge. Accuracy: Should be capable of shooting into 2 minutes of angle or less (4") at 200 yards/meters (3 shot groups). Post reply 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
brandon_a_boyer	2. RE: Scout Rifles - "Swiss Army Knife" of Guns or Poor Compromise? May 3 2012, 3:18 PM EDT \| Post edited: May 3 2012, 3:18 PM EDT The only two points I really disagree with is the Ghost RIng sights. I have never personally been a fan of them. As well as the Forward mounted sight. I feel like using box magazines and proper shooting technique would remedy any potential issues. Post reply 0 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
LJ126	3. RE: Scout Rifles - "Swiss Army Knife" of Guns or Poor Compromise? May 3 2012, 3:33 PM EDT \| Post edited: May 3 2012, 3:40 PM EDT Cooper does pose a few additional notes regarding "The Instrument" in The Art of the Rifle. The "red dot electronic sight shows promise but is yet to be proven." Note: this text was written before the widespread adoption of holographic sights, and he passed before they became mainstream. Weight is subjective to user. He also poses a quick method of determining the appropriate weight - "The shooter should grasp the piece with his right hand in a firing grip and hold it out shoulder high, at arm's length, muzzle vertical for 60 seconds." And a paragraph or three about a good trigger, and how his Blaser rifle is the bomb. Post reply 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
LWJ2009	4. RE: Scout Rifles - "Swiss Army Knife" of Guns or Poor Compromise? May 3 2012, 3:40 PM EDT \| Post edited: May 3 2012, 3:40 PM EDT I would prefer the Springfield Armory concept since it would be a semi auto rifle. As a jack of all trade rifle I agree that the smaller calibers are not going to cut the mustard. However I think a .270 would do fine for most parts of the country. Iron sights are a must, as a backup if something were to happen to your optics. I would still prefer a 3x9 Scope to cover some distance shooting and for observation purposes. I would also require a bipod on my rifle as well. Good thread LJ! Post reply 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
randomknife666	5. RE: Scout Rifles - "Swiss Army Knife" of Guns or Poor Compromise? May 3 2012, 3:50 PM EDT \| Post edited: May 3 2012, 3:50 PM EDT I like the Scout rifle idea, but as with LWJ2009, I prefer Springfields form. Although a good bolt gun is always nice (Cough)Enfields(Cough). Post reply Do you find this valuable?
epic_epicness	6. RE: Scout Rifles - "Swiss Army Knife" of Guns or Poor Compromise? May 3 2012, 4:40 PM EDT \| Post edited: May 3 2012, 4:40 PM EDT A scout rifle is what most people think of when they say sniper rifle as far as the ZSDW goes. Its not a jack of all trades and ammo for them is considerably more expensive than the common assault rifle ammo. They are also considerably less useful inside the 100m range where most engagements happen. It is smart to own a rifle that will reach out and touch someone but as a primary I think I'll pass, I think of it more as a special purpose weapon. Post reply 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
IamSlowRide	7. RE: Scout Rifles - "Swiss Army Knife" of Guns or Poor Compromise? May 3 2012, 4:41 PM EDT \| Post edited: May 4 2012, 4:03 AM EDT I like my Steyr Scout the way it is wouldn't change anything about it, mag fed, bolt action, bipod, Nightforce scope, but this big dog doesn't eat unless I'm ranging kills over 4 to 500 meters, zeds at that distance are a waste unless they are obstructing my objective and raiders as well but since they are thinking creatures I would be more likely to use this weapon in that scenario at those ranges, inside 400 meters I'm using a carbine length POF in 7.62x51, inside 150 meters the SCAR would be my go to in 5.56x45 or Arsenal Inc AK in 7.62x39, IMO there are certain jobs every weapon is good for and I don't believe a bolt action or even semi auto long gun is a great choice for a all around gun, most targets you engage in a defensive situation would be less than 100 meters unless you are on a LRRP, scout, hunter kill or similar type mission again just my opinion Edit: sorry about my wall of text...BTW nice thread LJ Post reply Do you find this valuable?
Redrighthand	8. RE: Scout Rifles - "Swiss Army Knife" of Guns or Poor Compromise? May 3 2012, 6:36 PM EDT \| Post edited: May 3 2012, 6:36 PM EDT "A scout rifle is what most people think of when they say sniper rifle as far as the ZSDW goes. Its not a jack of all trades and ammo for them is considerably more expensive than the common assault rifle ammo. They are also considerably less useful inside the 100m range where most engagements happen. It is smart to own a rifle that will reach out and touch someone but as a primary I think I'll pass, I think of it more as a special purpose weapon. " Specifically, Cooper's Scout rifle isn't anything of the sort. Check out his original definition: "A general purpose rifle is a conveniently portable, individually operated firearm, capable of striking a single decisive blow, on a live target of up to 200 kilos in weight, at any distance at which the operator can shoot with the precision necessary to place a shot in a vital area of the target." Col. Jeff Cooper " To Ride, Shoot Straight, and Speak the Truth" This became the Scout. His original prototype, I think, was a Remington 600. As for opinions, I say it's just about perfect. If you were stuck with carrying just one gun, it's handy enough for closer engagements - with practice almost as quick as a lever action. But unlike a (say) .30-30, you can reach out 300 - 400m if needed. And here's the thing - all in one, light rifle. As for sights, I can't say (no shooting experience) but can you expect reliable hits at 400m with a red dot? If so then maybe it's a better option nowadays. Remember Cooper first wrote about this idea 20 or 30 years ago. WRT ideal ammo - the .308 is a good choice for all sorts of reasons, but it may depend on location. Here in Aus. we don't get big dangerous game like bear, so one of the most popular rounds for all round hunting (from goats and pigs up to deer) is .243. It has some advantages over the .308, ballistically speaking. So I'm a fan of the Scout. Post reply 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
rabidbeaver	9. RE: Scout Rifles - "Swiss Army Knife" of Guns or Poor Compromise? May 3 2012, 7:24 PM EDT \| Post edited: May 3 2012, 7:24 PM EDT I am by no means an expert on guns but they seem to me like a good all purpose large caliber hunting rifle. I don't know how useful they would be in a survival situation because of the power. Good for taking down big game though. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
epic_epicness	10. RE: Scout Rifles - "Swiss Army Knife" of Guns or Poor Compromise? May 3 2012, 10:56 PM EDT "Specifically, Cooper's Scout rifle isn't anything of the sort. Check out his original definition: "A general purpose rifle is a conveniently portable, individually operated firearm, capable of striking a single decisive blow, on a live target of up to 200 kilos in weight, at any distance at which the operator can shoot with the precision necessary to place a shot in a vital area of the target." Col. Jeff Cooper " To Ride, Shoot Straight, and Speak the Truth" This became the Scout. His original prototype, I think, was a Remington 600. As for opinions, I say it's just about perfect. If you were stuck with carrying just one gun, it's handy enough for closer engagements - with practice almost as quick as a lever action. But unlike a (say) .30-30, you can reach out 300 - 400m if needed. And here's the thing - all in one, light rifle. As for sights, I can't say (no shooting experience) but can you expect reliable hits at 400m with a red dot? If so then maybe it's a better option nowadays. Remember Cooper first wrote about this idea 20 or 30 years ago. WRT ideal ammo - the .308 is a good choice for all sorts of reasons, but it may depend on location. Here in Aus. we don't get big dangerous game like bear, so one of the most popular rounds for all round hunting (from goats and pigs up to deer) is .243. It has some advantages over the .308, ballistically speaking. So I'm a fan of the Scout." facepalm Did you even read the comment you quoted or did you get typing before the end of the first sentence? Post reply 0 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
Oakspar77777	11. RE: Scout Rifles - "Swiss Army Knife" of Guns or Poor Compromise? May 3 2012, 11:15 PM EDT I keep a X3-X9 scope on my .308 and it doesn't have backup sights, but it would make a pretty good carry rifle. With softpoints it has more than enough stopping power for a quick centermass shot. Rate of fire is a little slow on the bolt, but the range is as good as my eye or my hand. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
Redrighthand	12. RE: Scout Rifles - "Swiss Army Knife" of Guns or Poor Compromise? May 3 2012, 11:42 PM EDT "facepalm Did you even read the comment you quoted or did you get typing before the end of the first sentence?" Yes, I did, and I disagree. Most people when commenting on "sniper rifles" would think of a bolt action rifle with a 24" barrel, such as a Remington 700 tactical or Varmint. NOT at all like Cooper's scout rifle, which is much shorter and lighter, and much more suited to dealing with short range when needed. Is it as good as a self-loader at short range? Obviously not. Is it as good as a sniper rifle at long range? Obviously not. So, our disagreement is probably that YOU think scout rifle when people say sniper rifle, but I think sniper rifle when people say sniper rifle. Post reply 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
epic_epicness	13. RE: Scout Rifles - "Swiss Army Knife" of Guns or Poor Compromise? May 4 2012, 12:27 AM EDT "Yes, I did, and I disagree. Most people when commenting on "sniper rifles" would think of a bolt action rifle with a 24" barrel, such as a Remington 700 tactical or Varmint. NOT at all like Cooper's scout rifle, which is much shorter and lighter, and much more suited to dealing with short range when needed. Is it as good as a self-loader at short range? Obviously not. Is it as good as a sniper rifle at long range? Obviously not. So, our disagreement is probably that YOU think scout rifle when people say sniper rifle, but I think sniper rifle when people say sniper rifle." This is a rebuttal to the first sentence, I thought you said you read the whole post. Post reply 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
renet76	14. RE: Scout Rifles - "Swiss Army Knife" of Guns or Poor Compromise? May 4 2012, 2:36 AM EDT \| Post edited: May 4 2012, 2:36 AM EDT I like the ruger gunsight scout rifle enough that i am getting one. its been a while since a bolt action has sparked enough interest in me that i actually MUST have it If fits the role i want from a rifle as most shots will be under 300 meters in my part of the world and the lighter weight and shortness of it are things i like as well and having a 10 shot mag in .308 helps a lot with the appeal as well The other thing was the fact it had iron sights as well so for me it was a complete package and it will be replacing my Tikka .300winmag Post reply 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
IamSlowRide	15. RE: Scout Rifles - "Swiss Army Knife" of Guns or Poor Compromise? May 4 2012, 3:04 AM EDT \| Post edited: May 4 2012, 3:04 AM EDT "Check out his original definition: "A general purpose rifle is a conveniently portable, individually operated firearm, capable of striking a single decisive blow, on a live target of up to 200 kilos in weight, at any distance at which the operator can shoot with the precision necessary to place a shot in a vital area of the target." If that is the definition to go by then my POF would fill that roll until I could replace it with a SCAR 17 Post reply 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
Redrighthand	16. RE: Scout Rifles - "Swiss Army Knife" of Guns or Poor Compromise? May 4 2012, 3:59 AM EDT \| Post edited: May 4 2012, 3:59 AM EDT "This is a rebuttal to the first sentence, I thought you said you read the whole post. " I'm sorry, but I've obviously missed something - after the sniper comments, you went on to comment that the Scout rifle is too specialised. Considering it was envisaged as a general purpose rifle that's pretty good at most things, I thought you were continuing on from the first part of your post. My apologies for the misinterpretation. For those of us without access to semi-autos, it's pretty close to an assault rifle and sniper rifle rolled into one! :) Post reply Do you find this valuable?
epic_epicness	17. RE: Scout Rifles - "Swiss Army Knife" of Guns or Poor Compromise? May 4 2012, 4:03 AM EDT \| Post edited: May 4 2012, 4:03 AM EDT ""Check out his original definition: "A general purpose rifle is a conveniently portable, individually operated firearm, capable of striking a single decisive blow, on a live target of up to 200 kilos in weight, at any distance at which the operator can shoot with the precision necessary to place a shot in a vital area of the target." If that is the definition to go by then my POF would fill that roll until I could replace it with a SCAR 17" Hell, a 17hmr could put down a 200 kilo human and has an lrt of less than 4" at 200m so it qualifies. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
IamSlowRide	18. RE: Scout Rifles - "Swiss Army Knife" of Guns or Poor Compromise? May 4 2012, 4:11 AM EDT \| Post edited: May 4 2012, 4:21 AM EDT "Hell, a 17hmr could put down a 200 kilo human and has an lrt of less than 4" at 200m so it qualifies. " No argument about that except IMO it doesn't fill the rest of the roll required by the entire definition, a 17hmr wouldn't make a good close to mid range weapon, again just my opinion. EDIT: Grammar Post reply Do you find this valuable?
Sharpie41	19. RE: Scout Rifles - "Swiss Army Knife" of Guns or Poor Compromise? May 4 2012, 8:42 AM EDT \| Post edited: May 4 2012, 8:42 AM EDT "Hell, a 17hmr could put down a 200 kilo human and has an lrt of less than 4" at 200m so it qualifies. " If you had a scout style rifle in .17 HMR it would be a psedu-scout, it does not meet all definitions of the concept. I personally like the concept of a scout for mid range stuff, but many scouts are friggen expensive compared to a standard bolt gun, I would build myself a scout probably Post reply 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?

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Discussion: Scout Rifles - "Swiss Army Knife" of Guns or Poor Compromise?

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