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wantmarmite |
20. RE: New Group scenario
Jun 25 2012, 11:09 AM EDT
"If I'm not the leader?Actually, I consider speaking out against torture not agreeing to be a part of it. You can't force the group not to do it. Agreeing with torture for the sake of "gaining information" lets me know something about a person. They walk a fine line before they lose all their humanity and I hope I'm not in their sights when that happens. Do you find this valuable? |
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the0bserver |
21. RE: New Group scenario
Jun 25 2012, 11:21 AM EDT
i would have took the supply, and left... i do not have the time to mess around with others.
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11ACRBlackhorse |
22. RE: New Group scenario
Jun 25 2012, 11:33 AM EDT
"I don't think torture is all that valuable. They may not know anything to start with. They're being sent to do someone else's bidding. They'll probably say anything to make it stop. What information can you even trust out of torture? I think people cross the line with torture and the information is unreliable. If I were them, I would tell so many truths, untruths and outright lies that it would be incredibly diffiult to figure out what was true and what was lie.They can lie to you with or without torture. If they talk when asked, torture wouldn't be a option. Their choice. Do you find this valuable? |
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wantmarmite |
23. RE: New Group scenario
Jun 25 2012, 1:16 PM EDT
"They can lie to you with or without torture.So what is the point of torturing them if you know they'll probably lie? Do you find this valuable? |
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=jesse= |
24. RE: New Group scenario
Jun 25 2012, 1:55 PM EDT
"So what is the point of torturing them if you know they'll probably lie?"I do think torture has it's place. It really depends on the person. Sometimes the threat of physical pain is enough. But I wouldn't say I'm above pulling a tooth if it'll get the answer out. Honestly I'd be more inclined if it was a family member that was in danger. If there is enough time, you could always play like a friend. Help them out, be understanding, earn their trust. That was something that was always reinforced in my line of work. Make friends, be understanding, get to know them, etc.etc. People are lot more willing to work with a friend, or at least someone with the same ideologies as them. Do you find this valuable? |
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Oakspar77777 |
25. RE: New Group scenario
Jun 25 2012, 2:04 PM EDT
Are you willing to kill someone with a bullet to the head to save the ones you love at 100 yards?If you said yes, but would balk at doing so at 1 yard, you are not dealing in morals, but feelings. If killing is justified to protect your family, then less than killing should be preferable. Torture is less than killing. So, if you are willing to cap the threat at range, but balk when it is torture - assuming the goal is the same (protection of you and yours), then your ethical issues are false and based on nothing more than how it makes you feel not any kind of higher standard. After all, for the victim, torture is better than a round to the head at any distance. Do you find this valuable? |
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wantmarmite |
26. RE: New Group scenario
Jun 25 2012, 2:17 PM EDT
| Post edited: Jun 25 2012, 2:19 PM EDT
"Are you willing to kill someone with a bullet to the head to save the ones you love at 100 yards?Doesn't that depend on what the torture is? Some torture is worse than death. I thought medieval torture was fascinating when I was 9. I researched quite a bit on it. People can really do some sick **** to each other. Torture by inpalement. A slow torturous death, hoping the person gives up information so that you'll end them quickly. Hang someone upside down to keep blood rushing to their head so they stay conscious as long as possible while you take a saw and saw them in half from crotch to neck. Choke pear. Expands and stretches mouth until jaw is broken. Or insert in another chosen orifice. Put them in a giant cordron of hot oil, tied up handing from the feet. Pull them out occassionally to ask questions. Cut open their abdomen and cook their viscera while they're still alive. It's one thing to execute a person. It's another thing entirely to torture them. You're okay with any form of torture or just some kinds? If some kinds are okay, which ones? Do you have a line at all? Do you find this valuable? |
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11ACRBlackhorse |
27. RE: New Group scenario
Jun 25 2012, 2:41 PM EDT
"So what is the point of torturing them if you know they'll probably lie?"They may also tell you everything they know. Thats why you ask questions you know the answer to. Information can be more valuable than food, clean water, medicine, guns, and bullets. So depriving yourself of any possible information is counter productive. My groups survival is my worry. Not the raiders or their well being. Sorry their luck at being forced/blackmailed into raiding my group. But they should of done a better job and they wouldn't be in this mess. Your original post has them not talking. That is their choice not mine. If they talk and explain, maybe something can be worked out. But not talking won't help them at all either. Now I don't really know what kind of torture I will allow. It would also depend on the prisoner. If the prisoner raped and butchered innocent victims. I just might shove starving rats up their *** and sew it shut. Or tie them out in the sun with a glass of water within reach. All they have to do is chew off a hand to get to it. I have a imagination and a family history of oral examples on top of what books have taught me. And lots of people have done real evil things to others for family and clan/tribe safety. But never did a bad thing ever again. I might be a basket case. But if it can help protect and or keep the group alive a little longer. I will stake out poor old John and his little sister Tina. If that is what it takes. Call me a monster but I will not play moral equivalents in a world gone mad. I will show mercy when it is warranted. But on people that just tried to kill my group and won't answer simple or any questions. Well they lost that mercy. Hell tell me you know nothing about the warlord but then tell me anything you do know. You have to know something no matter how trivial it may seem. But being quiet isn't the answer. Do you find this valuable? |
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wantmarmite |
28. RE: New Group scenario
Jun 25 2012, 3:53 PM EDT
"I will show mercy when it is warranted. But on people that just tried to kill my group and won't answer simple or any questions. Well they lost that mercy.How do they know if your group is any safer than the warlord? And don't you prove you're just as bad as the warlord when you torture prisoners? There have got to be better tactics to get information. I doubt you would find torture acceptable means of gaining information if it were your own loved one being tortured. Do you find this valuable? |
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Carnack |
29. RE: New Group scenario
Jun 25 2012, 3:56 PM EDT
| Post edited: Jun 25 2012, 4:06 PM EDT
"Torture is less than killing.Not always. For some death would be preferable as the remnants of that torture can shred the ability to live a semi-normal or decent life. Plus while most humans are capable of causing harm in the heat of the moment it's different when you no longer have that immediate Do Or Die need. Not commenting on the morality thing but the difference between cold blooded killing and hot blooded killing is pretty clear. Almost all human beings are capable of one if you get them angry enough to lose control. But hurting someone just to the edge of Too Much Pain and taking them there over and over in many different ways takes practice, effort, and control. Do you find this valuable? |
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=jesse= |
30. RE: New Group scenario
Jun 25 2012, 4:06 PM EDT
"How do they know if your group is any safer than the warlord? And don't you prove you're just as bad as the warlord when you torture prisoners? There have got to be better tactics to get information.Whether or not I'm just as bad as a warlord wouldn't really concern me too much. In a post apoc scenario, I would ideally like to help as many people as I could, and while I don't consider myself an evil person, if it comes down to protecting a loved one or a prisoner, it's going to be a loved one. If using some violence gets an answer I need, I'll use it. I won't go Hostile and peel them apart, and it wouldn't just be torture for torture's sake- at some point physical pain becomes counter productive. Stress and deprivation can work just as well. Do you find this valuable? |
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vampirejediknight |
31. RE: New Group scenario
Jun 25 2012, 5:51 PM EDT
"I don't think torture is all that valuable. They may not know anything to start with. They're being sent to do someone else's bidding. They'll probably say anything to make it stop. What information can you even trust out of torture? I think people cross the line with torture and the information is unreliable. If I were them, I would tell so many truths, untruths and outright lies that it would be incredibly diffiult to figure out what was true and what was lie.Exactly. Part of why I said: "Fact is, there's an easy answer. Torture isn't the only way to make someone talk. Find out their situation, treat them humanely, maybe offer them some kind of deal. It may go much better. You see, torture is a last resort for getting information, not go-to answer. Explain the strategic advantages of not torturing and killing them YET, and you will have everyone doing right with a chance of everyone winning." Do you find this valuable? |
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wantmarmite |
32. RE: New Group scenario
Jun 25 2012, 6:31 PM EDT
So, back to the scenario. Some of you are defending the torture and not answering the question. Would you try to convince the group to find an alternative solution to torture first? Would you speak up or just let it happen? I would hope people would speak up. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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11ACRBlackhorse |
33. RE: New Group scenario
Jun 26 2012, 10:09 AM EDT
Let me put this way.I will use torture as a last resort. But again, that is their option. Catch them trying to lie or not talk at all. Game changer. You all think that love and kindness will win the day or what. They already knew you are the enemy. If they really wanted to change sides they could of done it earlier. And they could of talked when caught. But for what ever reason their motivation is such that they won't talk. Do you really think by being nice to them, they will just jeopardize everyone back home by telling you everything. I don't think it will be that easy with prisoners from a known enemy. But ya I will try other things first. And if it works then great. But if we think they have valuable info it probably will get a little nasty. Do you find this valuable? |
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Oakspar77777 |
34. RE: New Group scenario
Jun 26 2012, 9:11 PM EDT
"(1) For some death would be preferable as the remnants of that torture can shred the ability to live a semi-normal or decent life.(1) You are bitten by a zombie - I can cut off your arm and you will live or you will die. Which would you choose? Now, I can cut off your arm, you can tell me what I want to know, or you can die. If you would choose life over the arm before, why would you not now? Therefore, it becomes clear - the arm or the truth even if you have a decreased quality of life. What torture is worse than death? Does more damage than death? Makes living life more difficult to survive than death? Reduces your quality of life below death? Death is death and while you might convince yourself that something is worse than the IDEA of death, actual death is worse for the person. (2) That is true - but that does not change the morality of the issue, only the ease of getting someone to pull the trigger. (3) I agree totally, and that was my point. People tend to aproach these issues with whatever feels right or wrong to them in the moment. The problem with that is that feelings will shift - and passions mis-directed can turn even decent normal people into animals (see Germany in the 1940s). People here like to be cavalier about shooting people who are threats, but get squishy on a lot of other issues. Those people run the risk of letting their morals turn callous about killing. Perspective helps them kill with the knowledge that they are making an evil choice to prevent evils - not a good choice because it prevents evils. Do you find this valuable? |
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wantmarmite |
35. RE: New Group scenario
Jun 26 2012, 10:54 PM EDT
Load of crap. It's common for people to commit suicide after torture. Some things just aren't worth living through.
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PaPa_NuTs |
36. RE: New Group scenario
Jun 29 2012, 1:12 AM EDT
Your all taking this as if they had a warlord and were being forced....what if they were low on supplies and thought it would be easier and safer to take ours then go scavenge for theyre own...in that case, if they attacked us, and killed our people, then we should be allowed to torture them for info on theyre group so we can launch a successful counter attack and get revenge plus get supplies then yes its acceptable. In a REAL survival situation, that Sesame Street hold hands and be friends ******** doesnt work, you have to be tough and make hard decisions. If the other group isnt willing to play nice then you shouldnt either. Bottom Line.
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RainofMails |
37. RE: New Group scenario
Jun 29 2012, 1:38 AM EDT
"Your all taking this as if they had a warlord and were being forced..."Yeah, I wonder why that is, it's a complete mystery Do you find this valuable? |
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11ACRBlackhorse |
38. RE: New Group scenario
Jun 29 2012, 2:47 AM EDT
@ Papa nutsRead the whole thread again. Wantmarmite (the originator of this thread) has stated they were forced to by a warlord. So that is why. Oh and explains RainofMail's remark. lol 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Ghoulsmasher |
39. RE: New Group scenario
Jul 2 2012, 7:46 PM EDT
I would ask why they feel they need to torture people for information. I would remind the group that torture is ineffective as it will cause the person to admit to anything.
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