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Discussion: democracy

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roxas33
roxas33
democracy
Nov 1 2007, 4:42 PM EDT
make your group democratic and have a voteing system will help with descion making 13  out of 39 found this valuable. Do you?    
Dvergamali
Dvergamali
RE: democracy
Nov 14 2007, 3:00 AM EST
think every group would nead a leader or it could fall apart. A good leader would listen and take advise but it really neads to come down to the person who is most skilled or qualified to be the leader. In my opinion that is 2  out of 3 found this valuable. Do you?    
monkytrainr
monkytrainr
RE: democracy
Jan 27 2008, 3:34 PM EST
Hm. I'm not sure if I agree with you there. I'm a huge fan of democracy myself, and I think a lot of situations in a Z-Day situation would be best solved with voting, but when there is a situation in which a major FAST decision is involved, I think someone has to take the initiative and do that. That would work best if a certain leader were appointed for such a situation, so that people aren't sitting around arguing as the zombies are running through the door. 1  out of 2 found this valuable. Do you?    
wulfgar87
wulfgar87
RE: democracy
Jan 27 2008, 4:24 PM EST
Depends on the situation for me (none of which involve voting)

If it’s my place, my food, and my guns you're doing what I say or you can go pound sand. It's not a democracy and there's no voting. It’s a dictatorship and if im kind enough to take you in and offer my protection I expect you to stfu and do what you're told. In the non-emergency situations of day to day life in a post Zed world feel free to question me all you want, but know that I’ll probably ignore you.
No strangers or new people will be armed. They'll be under the protection of me and my group and will surrender all weapons and gear upon their entrance and if they don't like it, again they can go pound sand, nobody’s making them stay.

If for some reason my plans go to pot and I end up in a group of people I don't know:
1: I’m keeping all my weapons and gear. Yeah, I know it's hypocritical but I don't care. It's my life and im not dumb enough to give up my stuff to someone I don't know.
2: I’m perfectly willing to follow orders given by someone else with the provision that they make sense/wont get me killed.
3: If I don't like how the group is run im packing my stuff and hitting the road...no whining about not getting a vote. Once a group starts questioning the leadership it’s already circling the drain and I don't want to be anywhere near them when the SHTF.


Voting leads to people feeling bitter when they lose, which leads to feeling like they aren't respected in the group, which leads to a power struggle, and power struggles usually = dead people. I don't want to be one of those dead people that’s why I intend to deny the (untrusted)members of my group the ability to question my authority and to split as soon as it starts to happen if im in someone else’s group.

Tyranny is awesome...just make sure you're the tyrant.
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vanrulzz
vanrulzz
RE: democracy
Jan 27 2008, 5:56 PM EST
lol, i think it should be a leader system but not as extreme as wulfgar87's tyrant plan.

(oh wulfgar, are you a forgotten realms fan?)
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Springatron
Springatron
RE: democracy
Jan 27 2008, 7:33 PM EST
I both agree and disagree with wulfgar. “VOTING” on the decisions in a situation like the zombalypse is the most ignorant thing I have ever heard. The biggest most important reason I am going to address is that a democracy goes against Man’s survival skills. It is slow to make decisions, slow to adapt and is has weak integrity. One person can make radical snap decisions that effect the group as a whole. They only need to justify the costs and benefits to themselves. They have to live with the consequences and the boon of responsibility. If the group does not like what their leader is doing it is up to them to remove him. One motivated and invested person at the lead can be the difference of life and death. They have the ability to fully use their speed and cunning for the benefit of the group. I do not think that you should keep your subordinates in the dark. They feel blind sided and than lean towards unrest and you will soon find yourself out in the cold and very alone.

Such is evident in all branches of the military, the corporate world and the government. In each group, team, corporation, etc. from the smallest team to the largest corporation there is one person in charge of the well-being of the whole. The whole has a responsibility to obey because the leader works for the whole.

I won’t address strangers in the group because I don’t want to take them on. My organization will remain as autonomous as possible with out the hindrance of outsiders. I know... I have trust issues... Kept me going so far....
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wulfgar87
wulfgar87
RE: democracy
Jan 27 2008, 9:14 PM EST
"I both agree and disagree with wulfgar. “VOTING” on the decisions in a situation like the zombalypse is the most ignorant thing I have ever heard. The biggest most important reason I am going to address is that a democracy goes against Man’s survival skills. It is slow to make decisions, slow to adapt and is has weak integrity. One person can make radical snap decisions that effect the group as a whole. They only need to justify the costs and benefits to themselves. They have to live with the consequences and the boon of responsibility. If the group does not like what their leader is doing it is up to them to remove him. One motivated and invested person at the lead can be the difference of life and death. They have the ability to fully use their speed and cunning for the benefit of the group. I do not think that you should keep your subordinates in the dark. They feel blind sided and than lean towards unrest and you will soon find yourself out in the cold and very alone.

Such is evident in all branches of the military, the corporate world and the government. In each group, team, corporation, etc. from the smallest team to the largest corporation there is one person in charge of the well-being of the whole. The whole has a responsibility to obey because the leader works for the whole.

I won’t address strangers in the group because I don’t want to take them on. My organization will remain as autonomous as possible with out the hindrance of outsiders. I know... I have trust issues... Kept me going so far...."
I kind of went overboard with the whole tyrant thing. MY group will all remain armed and in the loop. I have a very short list of people I would trust standing next to me at a range let alone with my life.
The "do what I say or pound sand" policy refers to strangers that, for some reason I can't think of right now, we would let join the group. I’m with Springatron on not wanting outsiders in the group. However, IF it happens you don't get a gun and you do what we tell you because the only reason you're here is because you want to be, we sure as hell didn't ask you. If you want to leave feel free but you aren't leaving with anymore than you came with and may be leaving with less depending on what we happen to need.

It's really all about not losing control of the group to idiots/outsiders.

(Vanrulzz, yeah)
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vanrulzz
vanrulzz
RE: democracy
Jan 27 2008, 9:41 PM EST
I get what you are saying now
(Wulfgar: sweet, thought i would never see one outside of the D&D and FR forums!)
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wulfgar87
wulfgar87
RE: democracy
Jan 27 2008, 10:20 PM EST
"I get what you are saying now
(Wulfgar: sweet, thought i would never see one outside of the D&D and FR forums!)"
(Not really into FR in general, just RA Salvatore...and i like his non FR stuff better.)

Back to the topic!!

Voting doesn't insure a right decision it just ensures the majority gets it's way and the majority of people are depressingly stupid.
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Springatron
Springatron
RE: democracy
Jan 28 2008, 1:21 AM EST
I have always believed that a man can be stupid, but people are stupid.
It always seems that you never end up in quite as much trouble alone as you do with your group of friends. In the same respect nobody can bail you out quite as well as them either. Moral of the story is whilst you might hap call the shots, your companions keep the score. Without your motley crew of freedom fighters you might never get to see that freedom you fight so very hard for. (‘Least that’s how I think of it.)
On the other side of the coin think of the subordinates. Every leader needs some followers and if we all think we are leaders nothing is going to happen. There is no shame in being a DOER rather than a LEADER. It means that your skills lend themselves elsewhere. Just be sure to have pitched in on the election and be ready to assume command if the time comes.

Lead, follow or get out of the way.
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13th.Casualty
13th.Casualty
RE: democracy
Apr 4 2008, 9:36 AM EDT
This is why I only planned on only taking 3 people with me on the initial outbreak. Less people = less personality clashes = less fighting. Once you establish some kind of colony though, I'm gonna have to disagree with you both. After a thorough screening, background check (if possible), and confinement in an easy-to-clean* room for at a minimum of 48 hours, I'm letting the guy in my colony. After that, I'm gonna set up some kind of mini-government with laws.

After getting enough people, train them in zombie hunting, burning stuff, and cleaning up, then go take some Zs. Easy as that.

*I'll let you figure that out for yourself.
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Legion12
Legion12
RE: democracy not
Apr 4 2008, 1:18 PM EDT
I go with wulfgar. I went to all the trouble of planning and stocking up to be ready to survive anything. If there are, say 5 of my unit and along the way we take in 7 more survivers and we hold a vote the all the food water and ammo get divied up and we all go our differenet ways, not going to happen. Just like life I you come to my house to play we play by the house rules. Be happy your fed and safe. All my 5 people will carry sidearms all the time. Do you find this valuable?    
xd34th
xd34th
RE: democracy
Apr 14 2008, 11:04 PM EDT
if you want to read a good book that shows well the dynamics of a small group in an emergency situation, read Heinlien's "The Number of the Beast." its not zombies but its fuckin good Do you find this valuable?    
Mehow

Mehow
RE: democracy
Apr 21 2008, 4:53 PM EDT
The way I see it is that there are several pros and cons of both democracy and dictatorship:
Democracy:
Everyone (should) be happy with the decisions
Decisions take a long time to make
People may divide into 'teams', like political parties, which is bad when there are zombies near.
Choices will be more rounded; no one persons view can bring the group down.

Dictatorship:
Decisions make quickly, easily
Everyone knows who's boss, disputes between members can be solved, similar to a judge in court
A bad leader will destroy the group
When the leader dies/steps down mayhem will follow
An inspired leader will do better things without the worse members of the team dragging them down.

I'd say that in my group I think we'd compromise. Rather then have a vote on every little thing there would be a vote every set amount of time. Whoever gets the most votes becomes leader until the next election. Once voted in the leader is unquestionable until the next election (unless he goes psycho or something).
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McSkullcracken
McSkullcracken
RE: democracy
Apr 22 2008, 12:18 AM EDT
It would appear that you need to account for two different group dynamics here: an immediate, small group that forms during/right after Z-Day, and any sort of colony or large group formed in a longer term.
For a small group, it will usually be the people you know and trust with your life(friends and family). These groups usually have their own way of working things out and making decisions, so democracy vs. dictatorship won't be a problem. Personally, my small group has a few people(including myself) that the rest of the group trusts to make the kind of decisions made post Z-Day, so it is an oligarchy of sorts.
Now, for the colony kind of group, a larger group about the size of a town or even bigger, democracy may be a viable option, though leaders may have already shown themselves through actions and the general respect shown to them. Some people crowds just turn to as leaders. But a dictatorship here would have much more potential for violent dissent and rebellion, so it may not be the best idea. Generally any large group like this will probably naturally find a system of self-governance that works for the majority of its population.
In the end, any type of system will be mad when the time comes, no matter what kind of preparation is made here. (Though preparation for this kind of thing in RL vs. on the internet may have better results)
long post, sorry.
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alicestar
alicestar
RE: democracy
Apr 22 2008, 1:08 AM EDT
a dictatorship will arise in the first steps of building a colony/stronghold, thats just the way it is, but when day to day operations come into play and the group gets a little more comfortable in there surroundings a council must be formed to keep the peace and the dictator must step down to more of a defense advisory position within the council. everybody has different ideas and they all think theres is the best so whenever they think they are not gambling with there lives your orders will fall on deaf ears! Do you find this valuable?    
onearmshortofasoufle
onearmshortofasoufle
RE: democracy
Jun 26 2008, 9:26 PM EDT
i've took people into siutuations that could potentially kill everyone involved and i always say the same thing right before we start work - there is a job to be done, if you want us all to walk out of it you do what i say - if you dont do exactly as i say then you will be risking all of our lives, and i have no use for people who do such things. democracy works in halls and courthouses, in civil enviroments.. in the field where the work needs to be done and lives are on the line there is no time for votes on what to do next. i can understand the colony-democracy dynamic, however the masses are not always right - and sometimes they need to be told what they need. in my experience in dealing with the public, people make stupid choices in large groups, and it takes a cool head and lots of experience to sway them from making million dollar (and in z-day times life threatening) choices, but sometimes they still want to do it their way... post z-day is not burger king, you dont get it your way.

god bless america, by the way
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Andering_J_REDDSON
Andering_J_REDDSON
RE: democracy
Jun 26 2008, 10:22 PM EDT
Democracy is actually highly over rated, especially during a life-and-death struggle. I'd really rather have a dictator who tells me, "Go do this", "Go do that", "Go away", whatever.
But not an unenlightened one; A simple despot is someone I'd have to kill, but a dictator, a Prince or Duke, who can make hard decisions without fear of re-election or other "popularity" issues, will serve us ALL best. (Just becasue it's RIGHT doesn't make it POPULAR; Just becasue it's POPULAR doesn't make it RIGHT.)
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dooran
dooran
RE: democracy
Jun 26 2008, 10:55 PM EDT
Democracy barely works in peace time, no way in hell it'll work in a situation such as roaming zombie hordes out to kill everybody. There is no need for it, and it's more trouble than it's worth in such a situation. Someone who can stand up and say "I know what the fuck is going on, and I can keep us alive if you listen to me" is in charge. I don't give a damn what you vote for, if there is someone who is best suited to be giving orders, he's giving orders. I'm not going to let some charismatic dumb ass get us killed for the sake of an ideal that fails to live up to it's own hype. Do you find this valuable?    
Kaikelx

Kaikelx
RE: democracy
Jun 26 2008, 11:20 PM EDT
I agree with what's been said except for one thing. At least listen to what a person tells you. That does not mean 'do what they say' that means 'file away what they have said somewhere in the back of your mind' you never know when what they have said could have saved your life. Do you find this valuable?    
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